I'm supporting not-Alonso

[siskue2005]

@siskue2005
He still split them in Qualy as well - so maybe a little bit of skill involved as well ???? - No?

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2010/835/6770/

It was Vettel's fault, but it is not achieved by Alonso ....so its not impressive as you said it. He was AS ALWAYS LUCKY (like in 2005/2006)
And in todays F1 you can hold someone who is 1 sec faster than you even in tracks like Spa/Monza, let alone in Hungary its easy peessy!
Even Rubens with 4 sec faster car took 5 laps to overtake Schumy with worn out tyres and even that was dangerous and difficult!

If you think luck could get you 2 WDC's and 20-something GP victories then is your luck so horrible you haven't even won a single GP,or do you think some tiny amount of skill must need to be involved. If Alonso is all luck than surely one of his teammates must've outscored him some season. I can't believe anyone could call Alonso lucky after this season.He's had more bad luck than anyone on the grid.

Why do you get melodramatic and defensive about what i mentioned about LUCK!
Where did I say that LUCK is the ONLY thing which allowed him to win??
Those who have watched 2005-06 season would know he got few lucky wins due to misfortunes of other drivers (and also at Bahrain 2010 / Hockenhiem 2010)

Alonso's lucky?
Siskue, if you think Alonso is all about luck, then evidently further constuctive dialogue will not be possible.
And by default or not, Alonso beat a faster Red Bull. The same way a driver mistake(which Vettels incident very clearly was) costs you victory, Alonso's pace allowed him 2nd position. Where was Massa after Vettels drive through?
NOT MASSA, but Alonso. NOT LUCK, He was faster than his team mate.

Facts.

Who gives a rat's ass about Massa??
Alonso surely lucked into 2nd place yesterday...ONLY coz others got penalty and even if it was Vettel's fault, its not Alonso's talent which made Vettel do the mistake
Its not as if Alonso pressured him to do this
Even if he was faster than him teammate, what has that got to do with your previous statement of "Impressive driving from ALonso to Split the RBRs"

where frankly Alonso just drove there at his own pace, and he let Webber beat him(who was behind Alonso and Alonso overtook him at the start because of clean line he had) ..he couldnt even challenge Weber's laptimes ...all he had to do was stay within 15 sec of Webber....which he failed to do and lost that place to Weber and after that he lucked into second place with Vettel's penalty

and Your statement "Impressive driving from Alonso to Split the RBRs" holds no truth at all

[747heavy]

fair point siskue2005 !!! - appologies
You win - I got it mixed up with Germany GP

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Actually Siskue,

What your post in fact does demonstrate is that you didnt see Alonso's pace prior to Vettel coming in for his drive through.

Alonso could have settled for 3rd place, by your estimation, But he did not. He was going as fast as the Ferrari could in the first half so as not to lose site of Vettel after been informed by Ferrari that there could be a penalty.

Had he cruised round, Vettel would be 2nd such was the pace of the Red Bull.

So it is a well deserved 2nd, Vettel came out ahead of Massa in the same car did he not?

Thats what Massa has to do with it.

Just give credit where its due....

[myurr]

Interesting comments from Renault: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85844

Basically saying that in 08 and 09 Alonso, along with Briatore, was part of the problem at Renault rather than the solution. Boullier tiptoes around it to a certain degree, but says that drivers were 'very arrogant and not pushing the team in the right way' which is clearly a shot at Alonso.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Boullier has never worked with Alonso or Piquet.

[myurr]

Boullier has never worked with Alonso or Piquet.

But works very closely with people that did, and they would have talked about what went wrong in 08 and 09 so that they can make sure they learn from it and improve on it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So its hearsay and speculation. Most teams will have a pop at departing drivers.
Sauber did with Raikkonen, Hell Briatore did with Alonso in 06. Their are many historical precedents for this.
I think Boullier should shut his mouth about someone he has never worked with, as head of Reanult's F1 concern, perhaps he should be grateful for what Alonso actually did in 05 and 06 rather than focus on being sour.

[mcdenife]

So its hearsay and speculation. Most teams will have a pop at departing drivers.
Sauber did with Raikkonen, Hell Briatore did with Alonso in 06. Their are many historical precedents for this.
I think Boullier should shut his mouth about someone he has never worked with, as head of Reanult's F1 concern, perhaps he should be grateful for what Alonso actually did in 05 and 06 rather than focus on being sour.

That he has not worked with Fred does not mean he does not know what he is talking about and is wrong or that its is 'hearsay and speculation'. Surely when he takes over an organisation with seemingly everything in place, will he not first review why they underperformed in order to determine what changes to make to improve? And as the main key personnel are still in place surely they will give him feedback on what they did in the past or how the team worked and ideas for improving. They are certainly doing a heck of lot better than last year with more or less the same resources (less in terms of finances). So whats changed? There is certainly a new optimism about the team with Fred & co replaced by a pair of committed drivers.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

That he has not worked with Fred does not mean he does not know what he is talking about and is wrong or that its is 'hearsay and speculation'.

It does when he has not had first hand experience of the matter. He is putting a person down he hasnt worked with. For the head of a team to so, is pretty crass.
Perhaps he is putting a driver down to big up another? Either way, Alonso has done more for Renault than this guy is giving him credit for.

Renaults car was hardly the greatest in 08 and 09, blaming Alonso is easy meat. Fact is Alonso doesnt need to say anything, the records speak for themselves. World Champion in 2005 and 2006. I can promise you Boullier will never reach this feat within 4 years of being with the team.

[aral]

I think Boullier should shut his mouth about someone he has never worked with, as head of Reanult's F1 concern, perhaps he should be grateful for what Alonso actually did in 05 and 06 rather than focus on being sour.

Why should Boullier not be allowed to voice his opinion? He has more insight into the situation than you or I. It is nice to hear others viewpoint, isn't it?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Im expressing my opinion on a man who is judging another mans work, even though he doesnt know that first hand.

[mcdenife]

Im expressing my opinion on a man who is judging another mans work, even though he doesnt know that first hand.

In fact he does know his work first hand, he is the new boss of the team Fred just left. That is first hand experience regarding Freds 'work' and qualifies him to judge, whether or not he was there when Fred was there. If a new appointee to these kinds
of positions cannot review and judge what went on before how can they avoid the mistakes and pitfalls of the past or indeed improve.

Fact is Alonso doesnt need to say anything, the records speak for themselves. World Champion in 2005 and 2006.

He has not critisized the guy as a driver, but the management or management culture particularly its relation with Fred.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Im expressing my opinion on a man who is judging another mans work, even though he doesnt know that first hand.

In fact he does know his work first hand, he is the new boss of the team Fred just left. That is first hand experience regarding Freds 'work' and qualifies him to judge, whether or not he was there when Fred was there. If a new appointee to these kinds
of positions cannot review and judge what went on before how can they avoid the mistakes and pitfalls of the past or indeed improve.

Fernando Alonso has never worked with Boullier and vice versa. So he does not have first hand experience. He knows what other people tell him of Alonso.
First hand by definition, means he was there when Alonso was present. We know this was never the case.
As such its a second hand opinion, which is fair enough as he can express it as readily as you or I.
But when he says this:
"No management to guide the team, and drivers which were not easy to work with, very arrogant and not pushing the team in the right way. That was clearly the main two components of what was wrong."

He is not taking into consideration many things. Firstly that Renault's future was undecided in 2009, which would have had implications on driver morale for sure.
And their general competitiveness was nowhere near what it should have been.

You get the sense he is actually happy with 5th position in the constructors at the moment. If he thinks Kubica is instilling success in a team that lies adrift of Mercedes(who are deeply unhappy in 4th) then may I be the first to suggest Renault look for a new boss?

[mcdenife]

Fernando Alonso has never worked with Boullier and vice versa. So he does not have first hand experience. He knows what other people tell him of Alonso.
First hand by definition, means he was there when Alonso was present. We know this was never the case.
As such its a second hand opinion, which is fair enough as he can express it as readily as you or I.

But he is in the same environment with the same personnel in which Fred worked but a few weeks before he started. So unlike you or I who only have access to said second hand opinions, he has facts as there certainly will be records. Records are not second hand opinion though yes the same personnel were still being available to corroborate said records etc. You dont run team/company and move it forward based on second hand opinions (I could possibly agree if you said second hand facts but that is meaningless, facts are facts)

As you said, him sayin:
"No management to guide the team, and drivers which were not easy to work with, very arrogant and not pushing the team in the right way. That was clearly the main two components of what was wrong."

To me, this is not a put down or attack of Fred but an explanation of the failing of the previous management. Fred arrogance is there for all to see so Boullier was not saying anything new. The point in this case was that Fred was bigger than the team and could do or get anything he wanted, so in a way the team became too reliant on him. That cannot be good for any team going forward especially when said driver has decided to move on and is therefore less motivated to help move the team forward.
The impression I got of the 08-09 season was that Fred was just marking time in that team, he heart was set elsewhere.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So what is written on a sheet dictates that a driver wants to be elsewhere?
Please....

He didnt work with Alonso, finished.