I'm supporting not-Alonso

[andrew]

"magnanimous" - that's the word I was looking for! Thank you.

[747heavy]

Maybe we should just give him (Alonso) a bit more time - don´t forget he is still relative young.
He will mellow down a bit more as he get´s older.
You see/saw it with Schumacher as well, therefor I would not say "Alonso will/would never do ...."
Never is a long time ..... - let´s see what will happen.
I think at the moment he is still very eager to go out an prove something, win and get/set some records. That seems to be more important to him, then anything else.
Over time, he (maybe) will learn that there is more to life, then statistics and that greatness is not only measured in numbers (wins,titles) alone.

[zeph]

At least Schumacher repaid the favours done by Barrichello.

Examples?

Having said that I don't ever recal Schumacher begging his team to give him a win like Alonso did in Germany.

Schu is solely responsible for the Team Order ban!

[andrew]

At least Schumacher repaid the favours done by Barrichello.

Examples?

Watch the podium ceremony from Austria 2002 and there was a US GP that Barrichello was gifted by Schumacher. Barrichello has nothing to complain about anyway. He signed as "driver 1A". If that ain't a no. 2 then I don't know what is!

Having said that I don't ever recal Schumacher begging his team to give him a win like Alonso did in Germany.

Schu is solely responsible for the Team Order ban!

Wrong matey. [-X [-X [-X
You can't blame the driver for the actions of the team. Team orders were inexistance long before Schumacher ever started in F1. [-X [-X [-X All successful drivers have benefited from team orders, just some are more humble and magnanimous than Alonso.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Andrew

What are you saying here?
You hate Alonso because he was faster than his team mate, and therefore the team make the decision that he should pass.
Yet you say now that oh its because Schumacher is "magnanimous" and Alonso isnt?

Thats poor form.

Alonso is no different to Schumacher in that sense and maybe its the similarities in the 2 that actually unnerve you?
I will defend Schumacher's performances to the hilt this year, we both know the car isnt all that. And comparisons with Rosberg shouldnt be made till the guy is up to speed.

But this does not excuse the fact that Schumacher was every bit as brutal with team mates in the past as Alonso. Barrichello hasnt uttered so much as a sentance to Schuey this year, and less since hungary! These are the actions of a man who was treated as nothing more than a number 2 at Ferrari, so he is bitter. Maybe righteously so?

[ringo]

Shumacher is no angel, but i don't remember him begging to switch places with his teammate. Team orders that benefit Alonso are usually incited by him.
I'm partly an Alonso fan, but i honestly don't see him as a nobleman type racer as shumi, he doesn't care about pride or image. When shumacher does his wrongdoings, he does so in a regal manner, so his image is still intact.
I never heard him begging on the radio like Alonso.

[mx_tifoso]

For those saying that Schumacher never "asked" for team order to be implemented, one must remember that in those days free-for-all radio conversations were not in place like they are today. Radio has become much more public recently and Alonso's comments in Germany would probably not have been disclosed by the team in previous seasons.

IMO of course.

[marcush.]

for sure schumacher had extended conversations with the pitwall during his racing .but honestly speaking he is in my personal view not the guy winghing on the radio..but of course I might be wrong there.

[zeph]

Watch the podium ceremony from Austria 2002 and there was a US GP that Barrichello was gifted by Schumacher. Barrichello has nothing to complain about anyway. He signed as "driver 1A". If that ain't a no. 2 then I don't know what is!

So these two instances where enough repayment for a teammate who helped him win 5 world titles? And are you saying it is okay for Barichello to be relegated to 'second-driver' status, but not for Massa?

Wrong matey. [-X [-X [-X
You can't blame the driver for the actions of the team. Team orders were inexistance long before Schumacher ever started in F1. [-X [-X [-X All successful drivers have benefited from team orders, just some are more humble and magnanimous than Alonso.

I know that. I am saying team orders were BANNED because of Schu. That is on record and unequivocal. Not sure from what you conclude that Schu is more humble and magananimous than Alonso. From the little I have seen and heard of F1 over the years, I would probably come to the opposite conclusion.

[Jon]

I know that. I am saying team orders were BANNED because of Schu. That is on record and unequivocal. Not sure from what you conclude that Schu is more humble and magananimous than Alonso. From the little I have seen and heard of F1 over the years, I would probably come to the opposite conclusion.

Hmmm...and all this time I was under the impression that what was banned were TEAM orders...but it turns out only "Shumi orders" were banned! Now I get it, that's why Ferrari thought they were in the clear! Thanks for clearing that out.

By the way...that was sarcasm...

Team orders were banned because of the blatant way FERRARI, the team, implemented them, not because they favored Shumi. (One so inclined might be tempted to argue that, had any other driver bar MS beneffited from the order, then no one would have batter an eye...but that would be an entirely different matter.) Oh, those pesky facts...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Jon

The example was raised by a poster that said Alonso was only where he is at in the championship because of favours(I only remember the one personally, and even then Alonso was way faster)by Massa. How many times did Schumacher recieve these favours? Plenty.
And is he Odious because of it? Of course not.

So why these accusations hold for Alonso and not Schumacher, with terms such as "magnanimous"(as if) makes me think this thread has descended further into farce and should be locked down.

[zeph]

By the way...that was sarcasm...

Thanks for pointing that out. Sometimes it is hard to tell whether someone is being sarcastic or just plain stupid.

[SiLo]

I remember the first race of '98, when Coulthard moved over for Hakkinen. That was an agreement between the two drivers, whoever got to the first corner first won the race, and they stuck to that. Why can't team orders be reduced to agreements between drivers?

Massa wasn't holding Alonso up as much as he was making out, the agreement would of been something like, if I get in your slipstream and have the opportunity to overtake "x" amount of times, then we will let each other past, and vice versa.

[SiLo]

And just to clarify, that would only be ok when it is mathematically impossible for the other driver to win the world championship. So like in the last one or two races. At any other time they should be banned completely.

[Moanlower]

There's a 'small' difference in comparing Schumi's time at Ferrari with Alonso.. Schumi's teammates never had a chance to compete and were already condemned before the start of the first race. This year Massa had equal chances and oportunities to compete with Alonso until he fell to far behind. It only takes common sense to do what happened in Hockenheim if you take notice of the competition Ferrari are up against and the standings for WDC.

btw.. Alonso don't have to apologise, repay Massa or even feel guilty for the switch. Massa has only himself to blame for falling behind and not delivering along the way. In fact Massa should apologise to Fernando for acting like a drama queen, putting himself as a victim and Alonso as the villain. [-X