What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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ringo
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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This gas turbine that weighs only 138lb can produce 317hp and 217lb of torque with a gearbox reduction to 6000rpm. This isn't even scratching the surface of what is capable from these machines.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt4ibkOT ... re=related[/youtube]
This engine was around in the 60's as well.

Obviously turbines are outrageous for 2013, but i believe this format is very feasible and should be pursued allong with the other ERS tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Model_250
One of the latest versions of the Model 250 is the -C40, which has a centrifugal compressor pulling a pressure ratio of 9.2:1, at an airflow 6.1 lb/s (2.8 kg/s), and developing, at the shaft, 715 hp (533 kW).
^ the perfect engine right there. :mrgreen:
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WhiteBlue
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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Turbo engines are used in aircraft due to their superior power/weight ratio. In aircraft weight has to be supported by power expenditure. This isn't true for cars and ships. Power stations use steam and gas turbines in combined cycles which is a very high weight design but suitable for stationary power generation.
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djos
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Back to Turbo I4's, you'd think if Ken Block can get 650hp out of his fire-breathing Fiesta the F1 boys should be aiming for 900hp!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TshFWSsrn8[/youtube]
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djos
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ringo wrote:This gas turbine that weighs only 138lb can produce 317hp and 217lb of torque with a gearbox reduction to 6000rpm. This isn't even scratching the surface of what is capable from these machines.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt4ibkOT ... re=related[/youtube]
This engine was around in the 60's as well.

Obviously turbines are outrageous for 2013, but i believe this format is very feasible and should be pursued allong with the other ERS tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Model_250
One of the latest versions of the Model 250 is the -C40, which has a centrifugal compressor pulling a pressure ratio of 9.2:1, at an airflow 6.1 lb/s (2.8 kg/s), and developing, at the shaft, 715 hp (533 kW).
^ the perfect engine right there. :mrgreen:
Ringo, the main problem with Gas-Turbines and road racing is the comparative lack of throttle response when compared to Piston engines. If you've ever watched footage from on-board a Jet fighter you'll notice that the acceleration is not instant when the throttles are advanced as the Jet-engine takes time to increase its RPM's.
"In downforce we trust"

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ringo
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WhiteBlue wrote:Turbo engines are used in aircraft due to their superior power/weight ratio. In aircraft weight has to be supported by power expenditure. This isn't true for cars and ships. Power stations use steam and gas turbines in combined cycles which is a very high weight design but suitable for stationary power generation.
I don't understand what you mean by power expenditure.

The Gas turbine is a superior engine. A steam turbine and it's systems is a whole different machine.
A combined cycle has amazing efficiencies, if i remember up to 70% or more, so you cannot compare that to a piston engine. It is basically a multitude of engines.

Big diesel engines are also used as power stations as well. Those are far heavier and less powerful than an equivalent gas turbine. They are also dirtier.
The advantage with diesel engines is the simplicity and familiarity. The control systems are also simpler.

Gas turbines and steam turbines are used in ships of very large size than require the right power density. Gas turbine can also use many fuels.

No matter how you want to word it. Any engine that weights 138lb and can put out 720hp is a feasible consideration. An F1 car is very closely related to an air craft, they both have the same needs, high power to weight ratio.
My only major concern with gas turbines would be safety and technical support.

But as i said KERS easily compensates for any of the draw backs associated with a gas turbine.
I'm for the L4 for 2013, but in the back of my mind a natural gas turbine coupled with KERS and HERS is an interesting solution if we are thinking about efficiency and emissions.
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ringo
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djos wrote:
Ringo, the main problem with Gas-Turbines and road racing is the comparative lack of throttle response when compared to Piston engines. If you've ever watched footage from on-board a Jet fighter you'll notice that the acceleration is not instant when the throttles are advanced as the Jet-engine takes time to increase its RPM's.
Which is why i would couple it with a KERS system. It doesn't take much time to increase speed either, sometimes the operator may chose to increase speed steadily.

Using a KERS system, the car can accelerate out of the corners on the electrical motor while the turbine is in neutral and spinning up, the ecu then engages the gas turbine already at it's rated speed and disengage the motor.
In the same way the anti stall kicks in and neutrals the car, the ecu will disengage the turbine and couple the motor as it sees appropriate.
The turbine can either directly drive the gear box or it can drive the KERS generator which powers the motor and wheels, at times when the wheel speed doesn't agree with turbine speed.
There is no lag problem really with this solution. It's basically an electric car with a gas turbine.
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WhiteBlue
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ringo wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Turbo engines are used in aircraft due to their superior power/weight ratio. In aircraft weight has to be supported by power expenditure. This isn't true for cars and ships. Power stations use steam and gas turbines in combined cycles which is a very high weight design but suitable for stationary power generation.
I don't understand what you mean by power expenditure.
An aircraft needs to spend power to stay in the air and not crash. The heavier it is the more power is needed to keep it in the air. Cars, tanks or ships have no such need. This is the reason why power to weight is the most important design spec for aircraft engines. All other aspects get compromised to achieve superior power/weight ratio including fuel use. Early jet engines had terrible fuel efficiency and practically no reliability and they were still used because they provided unprecedented performance for military jets.
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djos
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ringo wrote:
djos wrote:
Ringo, the main problem with Gas-Turbines and road racing is the comparative lack of throttle response when compared to Piston engines. If you've ever watched footage from on-board a Jet fighter you'll notice that the acceleration is not instant when the throttles are advanced as the Jet-engine takes time to increase its RPM's.
Which is why i would couple it with a KERS system. It doesn't take much time to increase speed either, sometimes the operator may chose to increase speed steadily.

Using a KERS system, the car can accelerate out of the corners on the electrical motor while the turbine is in neutral and spinning up, the ecu then engages the gas turbine already at it's rated speed and disengage the motor.
In the same way the anti stall kicks in and neutrals the car, the ecu will disengage the turbine and couple the motor as it sees appropriate.
The turbine can either directly drive the gear box or it can drive the KERS generator which powers the motor and wheels, at times when the wheel speed doesn't agree with turbine speed.
There is no lag problem really with this solution. It's basically an electric car with a gas turbine.
In this scenario you might as well just use the gas turbine as a generator and have a full electric drive train. (that would be interesting!)
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WhiteBlue
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Fuel efficiency of turboshaft engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_RR300

This gives the spec of a smaller turboshaft engine of this family.

Specifications (RR300)
Type: Twin-spool turboshaft
Length: 41 in
Diameter: 26.8 in
Dry weight: 176 lb
Maximum power output: 300 shp
Specific fuel consumption: 0.675 lb/hp/hr

Translated to SI units the RR300TS has a consumption of 91.3 kg/h at 300 bhp
upscaled to 650 bhp the consumption is 198 kg/h or 264 kg/race

So this type of engine has 2.3 times or 230% of the target race fuel consumption. Game over! :lol:

F1 racing engines need good power/weight ratio and specific fuel consumption.

If you propose such a turboshaft engine to generate electricity you have to do two conversions at 90% efficiency which means 81% total efficiency. If you consider that race fuel goes up to 325 kg. Devastating figures.
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ringo
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:Fuel efficiency of turboshaft engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_RR300

This gives the spec of a smaller turboshaft engine of this family.

Specifications (RR300)
Type: Twin-spool turboshaft
Length: 41 in
Diameter: 26.8 in
Dry weight: 176 lb
Maximum power output: 300 shp
Specific fuel consumption: 0.675 lb/hp/hr

Translated to SI units the RR300TS has a consumption of 91.3 kg/h at 300 bhp
upscaled to 650 bhp the consumption is 198 kg/h or 264 kg/race

So this type of engine has 2.3 times or 230% of the target race fuel consumption. Game over! :lol:

F1 racing engines need good power/weight ratio and specific fuel consumption.
You spoke too soon. Gas turbine is like a turbo charger you up the pressure ratio, you up the power. I can easily google a 1000hp gas turbine now of the same size.
You are cherry picking engines here.
Typical gas turbine has a 39% thermal efficiency, and this is a simple system.
Trust me, a gas turbine has an unfair advantage over a piston engine.
T58-GE-8F

Specific fuel consumption is 0.64 lb/shp/h. The engine weighs 350 lb [159 kg] and produces approximately 1,400 hp. With a 3.25:1 reduction gearbox this engine will produce 1,270 lb-ft of torque at 6,000 rpm
:o .

These are some old crappy engines in quoting here. Imagine if one was developed with racing in mind, with super light parts.

touche. 8)
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WhiteBlue
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The turboshaft engine you quoted has slightly better specific consumption by 5%. The one I showed has 0.675 lb/hp/hr. The one you picked has only 0.640 lb/hp/hr. This is a common thing that happens in upscaling. So we could agree that a 650 hp unit would have 0.657 lb/hp/hr. It would take 2.5% off my figures which is still basically a catasthrophy that no engineer would want to happen to his car.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 15 Sep 2010, 03:48, edited 1 time in total.
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jon-mullen
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ringo wrote:Trust me, a gas turbine has an unfair advantage over a piston engine.
Except when it comes to cost. The trick materials the F1 teams would put in a turbine would bankrupt the sport before you could set a lap record.
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ringo
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WB you are assuming a turbine powered car will take 1.33 hours to complete a race! :P

0.64lb/shaft horsepower/hr = 218kg for 750 whp for 1 hr.
Don't forget that a F1 car does not have 750 shaft horsepower, it's not considering the gearbox. You can assume a 15% power loss to the gearbox or more becuase the teeth a less efficient than a road car.
the next gen cars will have 650hp not 750, so: 650*.85 = 552.5 shaft horsepower.

so for that gas turbine that's 161kg of fuel for 1hr for 552.5 hp. Who knows what the torque is.
161kg for 1.33hr = 214 kg for a race. I think it will be faster!
Last edited by ringo on 15 Sep 2010, 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
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WhiteBlue
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ringo, according to my math you need a turboshaft engine with 0.294 lb/hp/hr to match the next generation of F1 engines. Good luck with the research.

An F1 race has an average race time of 80 minutes, which is 1.33 hours in decimal expression.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 15 Sep 2010, 04:02, edited 1 time in total.
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ringo
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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jon-mullen wrote:
ringo wrote:Trust me, a gas turbine has an unfair advantage over a piston engine.
Except when it comes to cost. The trick materials the F1 teams would put in a turbine would bankrupt the sport before you could set a lap record.
Maybe, :mrgreen: , but with 1 engine per season :wink:
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