What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
xxChrisxx
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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WB, your posts make me :lol:

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WhiteBlue
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I also had a good laugh about some of the things I found. Google bigmikesocal for a most aweful Porsche 928 with a turboshaft. Terrible noise! I cannot imagine anybody wants that. And the reactivity of the engine is very bad, sluggish in fact. Perhaps good for a tractor. I understand some train engines use turbines. That would probably a good application.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIFaxA3dj3Y[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN8oYSmQSIk[/youtube]
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machin
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There was an article in racecar engineering a few issues back (probably near a year ago now....!) about a sportscar with a GT engine... It had a one turbine and a compressor on the same shaft which was used to compress/burn the fuel:air mixture... the exhaust from this turbine was then directed into a separate, unconnected, turbine which drove the rear wheels. The driver effectively diverted however much exhaust he wanted to the second turbine.. between 0 and 100%. This allows the compressor (and its turbine) to always run at high speed, regardless of the load on the second turbine, and therefore it eliminated the lag in throttle response.

There was no mention of the fuel economy though.....
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Pingguest
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ringo wrote:Refueling is not expensive.
It definitely doesn't need tens of millions of dollars of R&D. The perfectly working fueling machines of 2009 are probably sitting down somewhere rotting away.
Mid-race refuelling requires a good strategy. The big spending teams developed special software to calculate the best possible pit stop strategies.

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747heavy
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Performance Rating

The gas turbine engine is rated at 130 horsepower at 3600 rpm output shaft speed and 425 lb-ft torque at zero output shaft speed under ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure conditions of 85 F and 29.92" Hg, respectively. However, unlike a piston engine, which is tested and rated as an individual unit without transmission or accessories, the gas turbine power plant is rated as a complete package including transmission and accessories. 'Ihus , owing to rating methods and torque characteristics,
the 130-hp turbine power plant gives performance comparable to a piston engine rated at 200-hp or more.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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WhiteBlue
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747heavy wrote:
Performance Rating

The gas turbine engine is rated at 130 horsepower at 3600 rpm output shaft speed and 425 lb-ft torque at zero output shaft speed under ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure conditions of 85 F and 29.92" Hg, respectively. However, unlike a piston engine, which is tested and rated as an individual unit without transmission or accessories, the gas turbine power plant is rated as a complete package including transmission and accessories. 'Ihus , owing to rating methods and torque characteristics,
the 130-hp turbine power plant gives performance comparable to a piston engine rated at 200-hp or more.
The source is the Chrysler turbine car.

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-Chry ... ticle.html

The turbine is very different in design from a typical helicopter turboshaft engine as it has a number of features in addition to the two independent shafts for the compressor and the car.

Image

Image

The primary regulation is through variable vanes - similar as in modern turbo chargers - and it has got two build in split regenerators. This particular design makes it extremely low revving, responsive and energy saving compared to a single shaft turbine or one without variable vanes. It still needs an automatic transmission for reversing direction and adapting to vehicle speed but the wasteful hydraulic converter typical for auto transmissions of the time isn't required. This explains that the turbine uses its special rating system including the transmission which would not be applicable to a helicopter aero machine. An engine along the Chrysler design ideas entirely designed to fit automotive use would probably have much better chances to achieve a sensible energy efficiency than a design which is optimized for aero use. I have not found any fuel performance and weight figures for this design.

Chrysler's design never made it into automotive reality, probably due to cost and margin calculation. An alternative project made it to mass production, the 1500 bhp tank turbine of the Abram M1A1. History shows that this particular development also never made it to a competitive level in terms of total cost of ownership and fuel consumption. Only the fact that the US military made the tax payer pay for the disastrous decision has kept the program afloat over many years. Foreign buyers of the tank, who had no national political considerations with the power plant have fitted more economical and reliable turbo diesel engines.

One of the achilles heels of gas turbines is contamination of the air. Filtering air for turbines is very difficult compared to piston engines. If ashes from volcano eruptions, sea water spray or dust from desert operation enters the turbine the turbine blades can be destroyed in a few minutes of operation. This is the reason why piston engines are much more reliable in power boats and tanks. I can imagine that the Chrysler car also had some problems with desert conditions that you find in many western US states. The tank engines used in the desert wars in Iraq certainly had much shorter life times than budgeted. F1 engines meet considerable dust and sand in Hungary, Bahrain and Abu Dhabi.

The need for an increasing amount of unmanned aerial vehicles for military and police intelligence gathering has led to a new breed of heavy fuel small gas turbine aero engines. Perhaps some of the technologies used in those projects will lead to break throughs in cost and fuel efficiency benchmarks. On the other hand it is also well known that Cosworth runs a successful project of a reciprocating piston engine for UAVs on heavy fuel with military buyers. So in that particular field it is also unclear if the turbine will win.
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strad
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I had the Chrysler turbine car break down in friont of my house...they used our phone to call for help,,no cell phones back then,,,damn thing kept overheating... :lol:
Last edited by strad on 15 Sep 2010, 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
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strad
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Something I ran across in my TT coverage. I thought it fit the discussion and you might enjoy..I'm sure most of you could build this in your basement... :lol:
IT'S NOT A TOY
click photo for video
Image
Last edited by strad on 15 Sep 2010, 22:33, edited 1 time in total.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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747heavy
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It still needs an automatic transmission for reversing direction and adapting to vehicle speed
why would it need a "automatic transmission" to reverse?
Any normal gearbox and clutch would achieve the same no?
Chances are, the car could drive a fast backwards as it could drive forward - not that it would matter much anyway.
This particular design makes it extremely low revving
I think it will depend on your definition of extremly low reving.

:arrow:
The first-stage turbine always rotates while the engine is operating, its speed varying from 18-22,000 rpm at idle up to about 44,600 rpm at rated power. The second-stage turbine, being connected directly to the car's drivetrain, rotates only while the car is in motion. Its speed ranges from zero at standstill to a maximum of about 45,700 rpm
I have not found any fuel performance and weight figures for this design.
:arrow:
Three major engine components (compressor, regenerator and burner) showed significant improvements in operating efficiency . The compressor efficiency was brought up to 80 per cent, a 10 per cent increase. The regenerator or heat exchanger unit reclaimed almost 90 per cent of the heat energy in the exhaust gas whereas peak efficiency in the 1956 cross-country run was around 86 per cent. Burner efficiency also was improved so that it was approaching the point of ideal combustion.

1964 turbine car specifications

* 130 horsepower at 3,600 rpm (output shaft speed); 425 lb-ft of torque at zero rpm!
* Weight: 410 lb - 25 inches long, 25.5 inches wide, 27.5 inches tall (without accessories, which make the overall length 35 inches).
* Fuel requirements: what've you got? diesel, unleaded gas, kerosene, JP-4, others. No adjustments needed to switch from one to the other.
* Compressor: centrifugal, single-stage compressor with 4:1 pressure ratio, 80% efficiency, 2.2 lb/sec air flow
* First stage turbine: axial, single-stage, 87% efficiency, inlet temperature 1,700 degrees F.
* Second-stage turbine: axial, single-stage, 84% efficiency, max speed 45,700 rpm
* Regenerator: dual rotating disks, 90% effectiveness, 22 rpm max speed
* Burner: single can, reverse flow, 95% efficiency
* Maximum gas generator speed: 44,600 rpm
* Maximum output speed, after reduction gears: 4,680 rpm
* Exhaust temperature at full power: 500 degrees Farenheit.

Although the progress of the gas turbine and its advantages are impressive, additional progress in improved component efficiencies (particularly in the compressor) and the future possibility inherent in increased operating temperatures, are extremely promising. For example, a 400-degree increase in nozzle inlet temperature would mean a 40 per cent increase in specific output for a given-size power plant, or conversely, a reduction in size for a fixed horsepower. The same 400 degrees increase would improve fuel economy over 20 per cent without needing to take advantage of any further increase in component efficiency.

The car left New York City on December 27, 1961, to begin a coast-to-coast engineering evaluation. After traveling 3, 100 miles through snowstorms, freezing rain, subzero temperatures and 25 to 40 mile per hour head winds, it arrived in Los Angeles on December 31.

The turbine not only lived up to all expectations but exceeded them! An inspection showed every part of the engine in excellent condition. Fuel economy was consistently better than a conventional car which traveled with the turbine car and was exposed to the same conditions. The key to the excellent performance and economy of the third generation gas turbine (called the CR2A) was its new variable turbine nozzle mechanism.

Keep in mind that we talk about the technology of 1964, so some advances are to be expected with todays know how.

While I´m sure, we will not see gasturbines in F1 in the near future, it would be wrong IMHO to just dimiss the possibilities of the technology.
As with all things in life, where there is some light, there is some shadow.
And there is more then one way to skin a cat, just that things are not done in a certain way, does not mean it is entirly impossible to do it.

BTW: what is the difference between water/sand/dust particles hitting a turbine blade and a turbo charger impeller at >100000 rpm?
Last edited by 747heavy on 15 Sep 2010, 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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WhiteBlue
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@747

Auto transmission isn't needed but useful obviously for a market that is used to it. Forgive the language gap.

Relatively low rpm at the drive shaft are possible with the variable vane control which often isn't the case with other turbine concepts. So I was speaking comparatively.

The engineering data still tell me sod all about the fuel use in kg/kW/h or lb/hp/h. If you can make sense of the figures please post.

Turbo charger impellers will not be exposed to particular matter as much as turbines as the entering air of a rezipro engine usually gets filtered much better.

Good to see you agree with the view that turbines will not make it to F1 anytime soon. The use as heaters and range extenders in electric vehicles appears more likely to me. I wonder how Merc will do the heating in the E-cell SLS.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

riff_raff
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Turboshaft engines have extremely narrow usable speed ranges, typically around 80% to 105% of rated speed. And the rate at which they can speed up or slow down is very limited. Partially due to inertia, and partially due to combustion stability (flame-out).

The F-35B has a 30,000hp engine shaft driven lift fan that is engaged/disengaged by a massive 13,000 rpm, 200 lb carbon clutch assembly. It is, however, controlled by a computer and not by the pilot!

riff_raff
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747heavy
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Re: What will come after the 2.4 V8?

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in regards ot fuel consumption
thats the only info I could find so far
Huebner attended his retirement party in 1975 and then went right back to work. A year after he left Chrysler, he began an eight-year stint with Volvo in Sweden, developing a small gas turbine for front-wheel-drive compacts. The result was a prototype turbine that weighed 25 percent less than an equivalent piston engine, delivered 100 horsepower, out-accelerated anything in its class, got 45 miles per gallon and had an amazingly clean exhaust. Volvo at that time had the gas turbine 5 two main problems, cost and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions, just about beat.
from another more current project


•Power: 800 shp (nominal) - 1,200 shp (maximum)
•Torque (maximum): 1,431 Nm
•RPM of output shaft: 8,000
•RPM of compressor turbine: 41,000
•RPM of power turbine: 26,300
•Weight 110kg, Width 390 mm, Height 390mm, Length 800 mm

Thanks to a double power take-off, our automotive/marine gas turbine engine can be combined at the same time with a conventional gearbox and with an electric generator/motor (increasing torque to 1,802 Nm) or air turbine, offering great flexibility (hybrid and zero-emission capability) and the opportunity to pursue a variety of applications, with exceptional cost and weight reductions.

Notably, the Project 1221 turboshaft / turboprop has the unique capability to deliver the same performance as a conventional turboshaft / turboprop of 50% larger capacity, while employing a transmission of 80% smaller capacity.

The engine presents a usual thermodynamic cycle: pressure ratio 8.0, gas temperature 1 450 - 1 500 K, specific fuel consumption (kerosene) 0.240 - 0.250 kg/hp.hour (without heat exchanger) or 0.165 - 0.185 kg/hp.hr (with heat exchanger).
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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WhiteBlue
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That looks more interesting. It sounds like the engine has a free power shaft but no variable vanes.

It is a bit overpowered. And the weight at 110 kg without regenerator is high due to the excessive power.

At 0.175 kg/hp/h and 488 hp average power I find 114 kg of kerosene for an 80 min race. The drivability without variable vanes to control the power turbine could be poor. Coming closer.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 16 Sep 2010, 08:22, edited 2 times in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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strad
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do you guys even watch the video???
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
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djos
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strad wrote:do you guys even watch the video???
very impressive mate! =D>

EDIT: I call game set and match on WB's rebuttals. :D

imo it would a fantastic generator for an F1 car that has has a full electric drive-train!
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