Porsche announces possible return to F1

[marcush.]

Yup. All they'd have to do is add 30 horsepower, take out 2 liters, lop off a couple of cylinders, trim it down a few pounds, add a pneumatic valve train, double the boost pressure, and then redesign it as a stressed inline 4 - and bingo was his name-o.

So what? Why should that be a problem for a company that has all the necessary technology and all resources?
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Twenty years ago they approached F1 with the same very attitude as Mercedes had when entering group C, both with disastrous results, which was only a few years after Porsche had had monumental success in F1 with their 1.5 turbo V6.

Difference was that in 1982 they had to listen to John Barnard, but in 1989 Hans Mezger tried to do it on his own.

exp,have you worked in Weissach?

from my very limited insights I can fully underwrite your comments and see no sign of state of the art leading technology present in current Porsche products .
tbh,Porsche NEVER had that approach of technological leadership and the general approch is very conservative indeed(just think about the car concept -Beetle- prewar...)the approach inside is at the very best to be a fast follower on new technologies ...but what is this? applying the technology when anyone else has it?
Mclaren is introducing a carbon chassis when Porsche is changing from Steel to Aluminium structure...
If you have ever seen the current DI injection boxer engine in the flesh you would know what I mean that is a massive piece ...the counterpart of what you need in F1.

[marcush.]

exactly.It has no real relevance so in a few words ..Porsche at this time is in no ways capable of being a top engine supplier in F1 at this time in my view.to gear up to be ready for 2013 ..I do not see in that evironment.
I´m not sure how many people in Porsch Motorsports are involved in engine or engine build but I´m sure this is a rather small group.
Porsche Engineering is busy engineering projects from the outside (and PAG is also client to them ,but this entity is besides located somewhere else also not motorsport orientated so by no ways prepared to cope with the demanding timescales and profit orientated ...with a total of 160 employees -50 engineers plus 60 mechanics..and sales and srvice personell for all their current activities...it is hardly a f1 spec facility.
On the other hand with the handful of engines you need to produce it would be feasible to add those to the currently around 350 they claim to build per year.
so what you ´d need is to install a new development team and of course outsource the production of parts so basically everything needed to develop and produce parts for such an undertaking...

[segedunum]

Porsche are in no fit state to create a F1 engine programme, and it's laughable for anyone to suggest it. There was a big hint as to who was responsible for McLaren's engine in the eighties - it was rebranded with one of McLaren's sponsors.

The only way Porsche will be seen in F1 is if VW starts an engine programme and then simply rebrands the engine for different teams, be it Audi, Porsche or VW.

[WhiteBlue]

Porsche are in no fit state to create a F1 engine programme, and it's laughable for anyone to suggest it. There was a big hint as to who was responsible for McLaren's engine in the eighties - it was rebranded with one of McLaren's sponsors.

The only way Porsche will be seen in F1 is if VW starts an engine programme and then simply rebrands the engine for different teams, be it Audi, Porsche or VW.

Please give a reason for your above opinion. I believe that you are not aware of the circumstances.

1. Porsche is in a much better position to run an F1 engine development that any other brand in the VW group. They are the biggest race car manufacturer on earth. They have done it twice successfully - once to McLaren specification - and have most of the resources required. So head hunting the few specialists needed would be the least effort for Porsche compared to any other brand.

2. There is no such thing like a VW group central R&D department that could do the engine for Porsche. It would have to be done by the VW brand development department. They would be by far less qualified than Porsche engineering (Porsche's customer engineering company sized @ 500 heads) or Porsche's product development department (sized @>2000 heads).

[zeph]

I agree with WB that Porsche is probably V.A.G.'s best positioned brand to develop engines. Audi's focus has been diesel race-engines, whereas Porsche appears to have been reasonably successful with their LeMans Prototype.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_RS_Spyder

[zeph]

No need for a slug-fest here. I'd be happy to concede that another brand may be better positioned, but I am not aware of any other brand within the V.A.G. group that meets those criteria. AFAIK, Lamborghini is basically Audi-engineered.

BTW, I have stated previously (in the Mercedes GP thread) that Porsche was not gonna touch F1 with a 10-foot pole. I think they have everything to lose and very little to gain, but I guess time may prove me wrong yet.

Anyhew, I read somewhere else that Ferdinand Piech wants to buy Alfa-Romeo, so....

[segedunum]

As fun as poking some fun is, I don't see why we should need to it here.

WB is trying to say that Porsche, as an organisation themselves, are perfectly equipped to conduct their own F1 engine programme. He's already had to give ground as to how the Tag was produced. Porsche basically just screwed the thing together with not a clue as to the development behind it. Given that they have no track record at all in this area and they're doing basic things like moving from steel to aluminium now build-wise (didn't know that Marcush) then you simply can't say that Porsche are up to the kind of job required. They're a very conservative luxury and performance car maker, nothing more.

Like I said, I can't see VW duplicating two or three engine programmes in their family of companies. VW already produce pretty good engines for lower formulas, and if they get into Fomula 1 they will simply expand that current effort and rebadge the engine how they see fit. It's the most cost-effective way of doing things.

[WhiteBlue]

Porsche basically just screwed the thing together with not a clue as to the development behind it.

I tried to be polite but this shows that you have no clue about such issues. My advice for you is looking for another site where people are ignorant about technical matters. You may find some who believe your abstruse theories. Making an engine involves many different steps which all require considerable skills.

• Setting basic requirements
• Conceptualizing
• Evaluating options and making decision
• Aquisition and implementation of human resources, new design and manufacturing technologies
• Proof of concept
• Design
• Prototyping
• Testing
• Final design updates
• Manufacturing and Assembly
• Field test
• Release

Out of twelve major steps McLaren have probably dominated requirements and had major roles in the bold items. They have probably had a substantial part in testing and release as well. All the core activities of engineering which are in standard print here were done by Porsche. If your rather ridiculous view was true Porsche had been restricted to assembly and nothing else.

Given that they have no track record at all in this area and they're doing basic things like moving from steel to aluminium now build-wise (didn't know that Marcush) then you simply can't say that Porsche are up to the kind of job required. They're a very conservative luxury and performance car maker, nothing more.

Porsche is the biggest race car manufacturer on earth by volume and by numbers. Their all conquering 917 racer was featuring aluminum and magnesium alloys in the seventies and was developing up to 1,500 hp. They have dominated Le Mans and CanAm with it. They have been making aluminum alloy engines earlier than BMW. The use of aluminum or high tensile steel for certain components is no criterium to indicate superiority. Porsche has done turbo charged petrol sports car engines much longer than any other performance manufacturer. The Porsche 911 GT2 RS has virtually the same weight and power as the McLaren MP4-12C and sells at a much higher price and profit. You better read up about the company before you get even more egg on your face.

[Pup]

The sad fact that with the limits on F1 engines right now, I doubt there's an engine manufacturer in existence who couldn't make a serviceable unit. Of course, if Porsche tried, and failed, then that wouldn't exactly be stellar advertising.

But like I said, VAG could well put a "porsche" engine in F1 without a single porsche engineer being involved, and probably would. Vinyl stickers are cheap and the technology behind them, as I'm sure WB would agree, is well within Porsche's realm.

[segedunum]

[...]

The bottom line is that Porsche did not specify or design the engine nor did they pay for it. The fact that they couldn't reproduce this four or five years later and their own effort was a total failure shows you how much of that 'list' they got right.....and they even tried to do it with effectively a stupidly overweight double Tag V6 because they didn't know what else to do......

Again, VW is not going to pump money into a Porsche engine development programme. It makes no sense whatsoever - especially in light of the fact that Porsche almost went bust for crying out loud. They will have one VW engine development programme and rebrand as they see fit. It's a no-brainer that VW are going to get right. I don't know where you're going trying to say otherwise.

[...] Porsche are not going to make F1 engines, end of story.

[zeph]

For perspective:

Porsche returned to Formula One in 1983 after nearly two decades away, supplying water cooled V6 turbo engines badged as TAG units for the McLaren Team. For aerodynamic reasons, the Porsche-typical flat engine was out of the question for being too wide.
The TAG engine was designed to very tight requirements issued by McLaren's John Barnard-he specified the physical layout of the engine to match the design of his proposed car. The engine was funded by TAG who retained the naming rights to it, although the engines bore "made by Porsche" identification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_in_motorsport

So Porsche DID design and develop the engine. John Barnard told them what he needed, and TAG footed the bill. Sounds pretty straighforward to me.

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Porsche are not going to make F1 engines, end of story. I know that's upsetting for some sensitive people but that's the way it is, and is possibly a reflection of the Germanic bloody-minded refusal to look facts in the face that xpensive was hinting at.

Not sure why this is necessary, or how it is relevant, but I think it is an ugly thing. Let's exercise some self-moderation here.

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And no, I'm not German.

[xpensive]

Nigel Roebuck commented the Porsche 3.5 V12 something like this; "Their engine was hopelessly bulky, embarassingly overweight and pitifully down on power, Porsche was in god shape for their F1-return in every other respect."

It was as if Hans Mezger deliberately wanted to do things completely opposite to what John Barnard had told him to?

[andrew]

Surely VW would be the badge that ends up on the engine? Porsche and Audi are established in sports cars so it makes sense that VW ends up in F1. If nothing else, think of the marketing.

[Racer-X]

It would be interesting to see Porsche in F1, Audi in Nascar and VW in WRC. Are them looking to be a F1 team or just an engine supplier? Williams and Sauber are candidates for customers.

[WhiteBlue]

Surely VW would be the badge that ends up on the engine? Porsche and Audi are established in sports cars so it makes sense that VW ends up in F1. If nothing else, think of the marketing.

Not according to Müller.