Porsche announces possible return to F1

[andrew]

Can you advise where Muller states: "VW won't be in F1"? I may have missed this.

[WhiteBlue]

Speaking to AUTOSPORT's sister publication Autocar, Mueller said he expected his company's motorsport activities - which encompasses Porsche and Audi through its tie-up with the Volkswagen Group - to include both top-level sportscars and F1 in the near future.

He made it clear that he expected either Porsche or Audi to have an LMP1 car in the future - while the other brand would then enter F1.

Audi has competed in the Le Mans prototype class since 1999 and is working on a new car - the R18 - for 2011. Porsche ended its factory sportscar programme in 1998 - though it did produce the LMP2 RS Spyder for customer teams from 2005 onwards - and would be the logical choice for a return to F1 for the first time since 1991.

"With LMP1, there are two classes and two brands - Audi and Porsche. We do not like to both go into LMP1 [against each other]; that is not so funny," Mueller told Autocar's website.

"So therefore we have to discuss whether it makes better sense for one of the [two] brands to go into LMP1, and the other brand into F1. So we will have a round-table to discuss the pros and cons."

Porsche's entry to F1 would most likely be as an engine supplier, rather than having a whole team. It would also make most sense for the company to enter the sport in 2013, when all-new engine regulations are set to be introduced.

Müller talks about the issue of Porsche and Audi now being in one group and finding themselves both in LeMans racing. He is a VAG guy who inherited the job of sacked Porsche chairman Wiedeking and now he sorts the problems out he inherited. He thinks Porsche belongs into LMP1 if they stay in LeMans. But there is an issue that two VAG brands should not compete against each other.

The obvious solution for one of the conflicting brands is to quit LeMans and go into F1. Müller is not concerned with other brands because they do not have open issues. Considering his previous position of strategic marketing manager of VAG you can bet that he knows which brands are on the corporate radar to enter F1. I would be extremely surprised if it turns out to be any other brand but Porsche or Audi. When a top level executive mention such things in his inaugural press conference there is always a hot potato that needs sorting out or an issue that he wants to be forced by public attention.

There is simply no case for other brands to enter F1 or Müller would have had it on his agenda. We are in a classical M&A situation and the new guy makes his moves to integrate the aquisition for the winner of the take over fight. The attention in this situation is on Porsche and Audi and making sure they are properly positioned to avoid cannibalization. Nothing else matters in such a situation.

[segedunum]

It was as if Hans Mezger deliberately wanted to do things completely opposite to what John Barnard had told him to?

Even the best do it. Honda tried to make a V12 and then exited when it tanked. Porsche are not Honda, however. They simply aren't the company you want to be making your single-seater engines. All attempts to say they have a track record there just aren't credible no matter how it's diced. VW have more successful experience than they do.

It's all academic speculation though. VW will simply make engines and either call them VW engines or rebadge them Porsche or Audi. They are more likely to be badged as VW simply because of the exposure and R and D programme that would be started as a result.

I have no idea why certain people on this thread want to make it look as if Porsche are independent and they'll have their own engine programme. They aren't and they won't and aren't in any fit state, no matter what its chairman says.

[WhiteBlue]

That is nonsense. VW has no single race in F1 to their name but Porsche has won races, alone and together with McLaren.



Porsche win by Dan Gurney at the 1962 French Grand Prix.

[xpensive]

That's a very relevant observation, if they won in F1 48 years ago, surely they can do it again, steel-rims or not?

[segedunum]

I have a feeling we're going to go round the houses again because people aren't reading enough of what's been written, but Porsche is a 'company' that has long since gone the journey when it comes to racing technology. I just don't see how a victory nearly fifty years ago translates into a track record of winning, and I see people are still trying to flog that McLaren dead horse connection when Porsche produced a complete engine themselves based on the same thing several years later and totally failed to understand what was required.

VW already has an engine programme in lower single-seat formulas - and they're winning. They don't need another one.

Since VW owns Porsche and Porsche wouldn't exist without them it's completely academic to argue about what Porsche are going to do because they are not the company they were even in the early nineties, and frankly, they're in no position to make any decision. As any kind of technology lead company that would be able to undertake this endeavour they are dead.

Porsche is a badge, as many marques are these days, but people still want to hang on to something. As I'd said, Porsche are a company that would otherwise be bust.

[747heavy]

I´m sure you know who makes the VW Formula 3 engine.
Will be interesting to see, if that company can pull off a F1 program, I somehow doubt it a bit.

The other engine for Formula VW etc. are hardly relevant as they are production units.
On the other hand, why does a current V8 NA F1 engine successful or not, has any bearing for the ability to produce a competetive I4 turbo charged F1 engine in 2013.
Not sure there is many carry over technology.

[aral]

I have a feeling we're going to go round the houses again because people aren't reading enough of what's been written, but Porsche is a 'company' that has long since gone the journey when it comes to racing technology. I just don't see how a victory nearly fifty years ago translates into a track record of winning, and I see people are still trying to flog that McLaren dead horse connection when Porsche produced a complete engine themselves based on the same thing several years later and totally failed to understand what was required.

VW already has an engine programme in lower single-seat formulas - and they're winning. They don't need another one.

Since VW owns Porsche and Porsche wouldn't exist without them it's completely academic to argue about what Porsche are going to do because they are not the company they were even in the early nineties, and frankly, they're in no position to make any decision. As any kind of technology lead company that would be able to undertake this endeavour they are dead.

Porsche is a badge, as many marques are these days, but people still want to hang on to something. As I'd said, Porsche are a company that would otherwise be bust.

I may be wrong, but isn't it the other way round? Porsche own VW. I seem to remember that VW wanted to buy Porsche, and there were shady bank dealings, resulting in their take-over by Porsche. But either way, the engine could be supplied with VW labels to one team, SEAT label to another, and also with a Porsche label. However with GT racing also adopting the 1.6 turbo, I would see Porsche using their name at that level, as GTs are their bread and butter. Finally, I cannot see a problem with VW not having a heritage. They can create one!

[zeph]

Since VW owns Porsche and Porsche wouldn't exist without them.....

Wrong. VW does not own Porsche. In fact, just a few years ago Porsche was about to buy VW, but that deal fell flat. Both companies own stock of the other, share board members and they are working on a merger, but as it stands right now Porsche is still an independent company.


http://www.porsche-se.com/pho/en/

And for good measure:

Porsche SE has one main subsidiary – Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG (which stands for Doktor Ingenieur honoris causa Ferdinand Porsche Aktiengesellschaft), often shortened to Porsche AG, which is responsible for the actual production and manufacture of the Porsche automobile line. The company is also the majority shareholder in Volkswagen AG, the parent company of the Volkswagen Group, which includes (but is not limited to) the automotive marques Audi, Volkswagen, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT and Škoda.

In August 2009, Porsche SE and Volkswagen AG reached an agreement that the two companies would merge in 2011, to form an "Integrated Automotive Group".


But this is from Wikipedia, so you may want to to dispute that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche

[WhiteBlue]

Porsche is a badge, as many marques are these days, but people still want to hang on to something. As I'd said, Porsche are a company that would otherwise be bust.

Porsche is and has been the most profitable automotive company in the world for a long time. To say they are bust is ignorance on a galactic scale. When it comes to consistently making money by designing and selling desirable products not even Ferrari can show profit margins Porsche can. Wendelin Wiedeking is probably the brightest engineer who worked in the Auto industry for the last 20 years. At least he is probably the most successful. Porsche had a market capitalization of €0.3b in 1993 when he took over as chairman. In 2007 when the conflict between him and Ferdinand Piech began Porsche had increased its capitalization to €25b. For every year of his chairmanship Porsche increased the value of the firm by 600% or by 83,000% in 14 years.

To say Porsche is bust due to the financial desaster of the hostile take over attempt is total ignorance of the reality. The company is still profitable and strong. The money Porsche lost in the VW battle has nothing to do with the operating reality. They are a consequence of a share holder battle between the Piech and Porsche families. If someone is to blame for that I'd say that Ferdinand Piech should raise his hand.

Porsche today is under the total control of Piech's men Macht and Müller. In reality they have no alternative to continue Wiedeking's work and keep making Porsche stronger. It looks like they are doing exactly that. The decision not to let Audi and Porsche fight each other in LMP1 but have one of them go into F1 is perfectly reasonable. The timing to do this at acceptable conditions and cost has never been better.

[Pup]

Well, while I think WB's defense is weak, I personally don't doubt that Porsche/Audi/VW/Etc. have the know how to make an F1 engine. And of course if they run across anything new to them, there's always google. But while I think they'd have no problem building an engine that's either powerful or light or reliable, it's always up in the air as to whether any new manufacturer can make one that's all three. It's a competition, as I understand the term, and even if the regs specced steam engines, a newcomer would still be expected to struggle as they learned the subtleties of the problem. The larger question is whether VAG have the guts to stick it out if they don't do well. They've dominated LeMans because all the other heavy hitters left the sport. They won't have that advantage in F1.

And yes, VW is well in control of Porsche. As WB says, it's all a family thing.

[segedunum]

They bankrupted themselves - although Porsche are two companies - the bankrupted one that was going to take over VW and the car business that can't survive by itself. That's why VW effectively had to take them over because they had no choice. It was described as a merger, but these things always are. I'm not up on the particulars but the merger (takeover) will get totally completed in the next year or two I believe where they will be consumed completely by VW, so I doubt Porsche are going to be flitting off on new ventures any time soon.

They got involved in a hedge fund short squeeze with VW shares that superficially made their profits look very healthy, and then promptly hit the buffers as the financial crisis hit, car sales slumped and VW had to return the favour. In fact, Porsche simply became a hedge fund that spiralled out of control and one financial director of another car manufacturer described tham as a bank that made a few cars. A lot of how they managed it is detailed quite well here:

http://radian.org/notebook/porsche

The chairman and financial director had to leave under a bit of a cloud and who had hacked off a lot of people to be replaced by VW people. The majority of car sales they have had over the past few years have been dominated by the Cayenne - not really the fickle market you want to be in if you want to stick around right now. Sales are not good.

How that translates into being able to build an effective Formula 1 engine and general engine expertise is anyone's guess though....... The number of engine manufacturers is seriously consolidating these days for obvious reasons, and you simply can't see VW investing in multiple separate VW, Porsche and/or Audi engine and sport programmes other than a rebadging job. That's like trying to get the tide to go back.

[segedunum]

Wrong. VW does not own Porsche. In fact, just a few years ago Porsche was about to buy VW, but that deal fell flat.

That's what you get for reading Wikipedia articles verbatim and not keeping up or at least reading around Zeph......

The Wikipedia article is actually right - I haven't read about this shambles for a little while but Porsche do actually still own most of VW's shares. However, Porsche went belly up when their short squeeze scam collapsed and they couldn't sustain their own debts. A few months later in 2009 VW people were in charge and VW started a process to buy Porsche. They'll be completely consumed by VW in the next year, but VW are most decidedly in charge and Porsche cannot do anything of their own accord.

[WhiteBlue]

Which has nothing to do with Porsche's operational or technical qualities. It is just an ownership issue between the Piech and Porsche families. Porsche is much better suited to enter F1 as an engine supplier for 1.6L turbo charged four cylinder performance petrol engines in 2013 than VW. Equity battles of the past are the least relevant factors for such a decision but they may now lead to a less conservative and profit oriented approach by Porsche. Wiedeking never spend a single € on F1 and I have doubt that he would ever do this, but with a new motor sport strategy integral to the VW/Porsche group the chances are much better something will happen.

[marcush.]

Well, while I think WB's defense is weak, I personally don't doubt that Porsche/Audi/VW/Etc. have the know how to make an F1 engine. And of course if they run across anything new to them, there's always google. But while I think they'd have no problem building an engine that's either powerful or light or reliable, it's always up in the air as to whether any new manufacturer can make one that's all three. It's a competition, as I understand the term, and even if the regs specced steam engines, a newcomer would still be expected to struggle as they learned the subtleties of the problem. The larger question is whether VAG have the guts to stick it out if they don't do well. They've dominated LeMans because all the other heavy hitters left the sport. They won't have that advantage in F1.

And yes, VW is well in control of Porsche. As WB says, it's all a family thing.

+1
But it is Porsche that is now already well under control of porsche,rest assured,the chairs have moved a lot and new suits are calling the shots after a time of uncertainty.