Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[aral]

Hamilton made no mistakes. Gilgen is desperately trying to prove Hamilton wrong.
Webber was a fool not to use his brakes. He will make the same mistake again, but this time with another driver.
Gilgen clearly hasn't watched formula1 enough. Marcush and Poleman clearly know what they are talking about; they see it objectively.
Gilgen on the other hand would blame Prost for Senna crashing into him.
Or blame Button for Vettel wiping him out.

I dont understand why you find it neccessary to attack me. I was never a fan of Webbers, so i have no interest in defending him. I have , however, had experience of racing, and so can speak with a modicum of experience. Passing is normally done on the inside of corners, and rarely on the outside, for fear of running off track at the exit. In this case, it was Hamilton who was trying to finish an overtaking move, and miscalculated. In fact, I have always put this incident down to a "racing incident" where both drivers failed to use a little common sense. But there seem to be some who claim that Webber DELIBERATELY rammed Hamilton. And if you look at my posts, did you not see me referring to Senna deliberately running Prost off the track, and telling him beforehand, that he would do so.

That's a straw man argument. The purpose of the Senna Prost Video was to demonstrate if the following driver can deffend the inside.

It is impossible to defend if you are following. Correct? Yes or No?

Finaly, who has more accountability the following driver or the driver up ahead?
Look on the Alonso pass on Shumacher at Suuka and be honest about it. Alonso was never clearly ahead and he cut in on Shumacher, Hamilton did not cut in on webber, yet Micheal braked earlier and turned in avoiding a collision.
Micheal had more responsibility becuase he had more visual information at his disposal.
I wasn't attacking you, but i really wanted to know if, based on so many examples in the past, that you truly believe the following driver has no responsibility at all to how he approaches a turn with another car.
Was Heiki responsible for Webber crashing into the back of him? You see, too many cases where you simply cannot blame the leading driver.

Your argument is most peculiar. Who are you saying was a following driver? The cars were never leading/following. There was an overlap for some distance, with Hamilton overtaking on the outside. Do you not want to see real racing, with cars going for openings? I am sure that there are hundreds of clips available where two cars have gone through a corner side by side, and NOT had a coming together.

[ringo]

Why do you persist with the circumlocution.
Webber was following. He was passed in the corner before accident, thus the telemetry had hamilton in third and Webber in fourth. Therefore Webber was the following driver. It can't get be any more defined than that, webber's nose was at e Lewis' rear wheel, he physically cannot be ahead.

Webber was the follower and attacker, so was Vettel on button, Senna on prost, and Webber on kavalinen in European grand prix.
Vettel was also the attacker in turkey, putting him at fault. He had the inside, but was not leading, and therefore had the responsibility of making the corner safely with both cars.

[aral]

Why do you persist with the circumlocution.
Webber was following. He was passed in the corner before accident, thus the telemetry had hamilton in third and Webber in fourth. Therefore Webber was the following driver. It can't get be any more defined than that, webber's nose was at e Lewis' rear wheel, he physically cannot be ahead.

Webber was the follower and attacker, so was Vettel on button, Senna on prost, and Webber on kavalinen in European grand prix.
Vettel was also the attacker in turkey, putting him at fault. He had the inside, but was not leading, and therefore had the responsibility of making the corner safely with both cars.

You seem to contradict yourself. First of all you say that Hamilton was leading. I have seen NOTHING to confirm anything, other than that he was in the process of overtaking. Secondly you say that as Webbers nose was level with Hamiltons rear wheel , so he could not physically be ahead. But you neglect to say that neither could Hamilton be said to be "physically ahead", or that Webber was "physically behind".
I do not know if you have ever raced, but believe me, this situation occurs hundreds of times, and even several times in that particular race, but the outer car usually gives space to the inside car, even if it is a late lunge.
At the end of the day, I put it down to a "racing incident", and the stewards, who are the real arbiters, also said the same.

[lolzi]

Why do you persist with the circumlocution.
Webber was following. He was passed in the corner before accident, thus the telemetry had hamilton in third and Webber in fourth. Therefore Webber was the following driver. It can't get be any more defined than that, webber's nose was at e Lewis' rear wheel, he physically cannot be ahead.

Webber was the follower and attacker, so was Vettel on button, Senna on prost, and Webber on kavalinen in European grand prix.
Vettel was also the attacker in turkey, putting him at fault. He had the inside, but was not leading, and therefore had the responsibility of making the corner safely with both cars.

Most of the post made sense, except the last bit - because Hamilton is a bit ahead of Webber, he is leading, but when Vettel is a bit in front of Webber, he's not leading.

[PlatinumZealot]

Vettel came up on Webber.. Webber was comming up on Hamilton.. makes sense to me.
Webber was already beat and he decided to fight back.

[lolzi]

Vettel came up on Webber.. Webber was comming up on Hamilton.. makes sense to me.
Webber was already beat and he decided to fight back.

You wrote that Vettel wasn't leading in Turkey. I don't get how you got to that conclusion.

[aral]

Vettel came up on Webber.. Webber was comming up on Hamilton.. makes sense to me.
Webber was already beat and he decided to fight back.

You wrote that Vettel wasn't leading in Turkey. I don't get how you got to that conclusion.

I think that it is just a turn of phrase. Just that Vettel was in the process of passing, and therefore, without the coming together, Webber was , in effect "beaten".
In Singapore, though, Webber had been leading Hamilton. Hamilton slipstreamed up alongside, and there was a drag race, with Hamilton inching forward, due to greater top speed. Hamilton was in the process of passing, but hadn't fully completed the pass, before turning in. It was just a miscalculation. The matter is over and done with, so why not just stop this continual argument from both sides, and get on with the racing.

[ringo]

Why do you guys misunderstand to create a side arguement. Vettel was not leading in Turkey. He pounced on Webber. And besides that one example what about the others I listed?

The last part of my post was to show that no matter where you are on the track, inside, outside, middle; from you are behind, you are in no position to defend or have rights to anything but room enough to brake. That is logical, you cannot defend what is ahead of you.
This is why football has a rule called offside. The last defenders have no hope of defending an attacker that is passed them. Their defenses are breached and logically they have no other hope of taking action, aside from the ref blowing the whistle.

Another good example is Alonso and Kubica in Silverstone. Alonso was like Webber, in that he was behind and did not want to brake, going for a position that in his mind was his, but in reality never was.

The one thing i regret from Singapore is that Lewis never squeezed webber enough.
He should have squeezed him from they broke the corner coming down.
He was too nice to webber.

[aral]

Why do you guys misunderstand to create a side arguement. Vettel was not leading in Turkey. He pounced on Webber. And besides that one example what about the others I listed?

The last part of my post was to show that no matter where you are on the track, inside, outside, middle; from you are behind, you are in no position to defend or have rights to anything but room enough to brake. That is logical, you cannot defend what is ahead of you.
This is why football has a rule called offside. The last defenders have no hope of defending an attacker that is passed them. Their defenses are breached and logically they have no other hope of taking action, aside from the ref blowing the whistle.

Another good example is Alonso and Kubica in Silverstone. Alonso was like Webber, in that he was behind and did not want to brake, going for a position that in his mind was his, but in reality never was.

The one thing i regret from Singapore is that Lewis never squeezed webber enough.
He should have squeezed him from they broke the corner coming down.
He was too nice to webber.

Not trying to be facetous, but did you not consider that maybe YOU are misunderstanding the situation. Actual racing gives you a different perspective on events, and I am sure neither Hamilton or Webber believe that they were wrong, or that they should not be trying. Notice that there is no complaint from either driver.

[Giblet]

If I was webber and Hamilton, I'd grab a pint with the other, and read this forum and giggle on the narrow and intense focus of the event in Singapore.

They have moved on, maybe all of us should as well? There is no point in trying to argue an opinion as fact. Agree to disagree?

[zeph]

Notice that there is no complaint from either driver.

They have moved on, maybe all of us should as well? There is no point in trying to argue an opinion as fact. Agree to disagree?

Sheeez guys, why let sanity and common sense prevail when we can have 20 more pages of the same guff?

[ringo]

Then why enter the discussion only to end it? We still have 3 days till Suzuka.

Hamilton's wheel after the overshooting webber torpedo hit it:


Webber was out of control.

[Caito]

Continue arguing(if you want) with private messages so we don't lose the original thread. Else, as stated, agree to disagree.

To move on. If Hamilton is desperate(or whatever) we should see more mistakes in the following deciding races. He's not between the sword and the wall, yet. Should he aim for consistent points, or risk for the win?

[ringo]

If you check back at page 80, i tried to redirect the thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8394&start=1185
But some feel they should continue the discussion as long as it suits them, then stop it whenever they start to look inconsistent.

I don't mind discussing the championship at all, but it's interesting how some view the racing, and it doesn't bother me discussing the same thing for 40 pages . If i don't want to see it , i'll go somewhere else. It's not really about webber and Hamilton, cause i'm sure we'll see more from webber in the races to come.
Maybe an Alonso Webber incident thread or another Vettel Webber reunion.

I don't think Lewis made any mistakes outside of Monza, but expect him to shake the bad luck like how Alonso shaken off his bad luck. So i don't think there will be any more coming togethers. He's a pretty mistake free driver.

Mistakes or being around high risk drivers only come with a "nearly" car. If the car is there, the drivers can take less risks to put it where it needs to be.

100points to go, so consistent point scoring is a little too late. You need the wins because some other guy will be getting them if you're just getting consistent points.
In the case of the Mclaren that leaves Vettel and Webbel to revel in the wins if Lewis or Jenson settle for 4rths and 3rds. Mclaren need 1-2s to take webber off.

Alonso though, plans to be on podium at least to the last race. But if the ferrari is not the fastest in the last race, then he's in trouble. So i'd go for the grab as much as you can strategy.
He could be assuming that webber wont be ahead of him for all the 4 races, and with 11 points diference he could cover Webber with only 2 or 3 races, with Lewis or Vettel heading them.
I'm also interested in what's going through jenson's mind. He may be more Hamilton like in the last races.

[lolzi]

I'm also interested in what's going through jenson's mind. He may be more Hamilton like in the last races.

It would be awesome to see an aggressive Jenson Button in action, especially because he doesn't tend to qualify very well. Maybe we will see the Button from Brazil last year again?