Exhaust flames on overrun

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
donskar
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Ciro, excellent post. It is posts like this one (and others) that keep me coming back to this forum multiple times each day (at work [-X ).

I have enough background to know and understand points 2) and 4) in your post, but you've added to my incomplete understanding of points 1) and 3).

Thanks!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Point 3 is easy, probably it's that I don't explain well:

At low rpm the spark (in the spark plug) is not strong, because the alternator is working at low rmp. Yes, the car has electronics to keep the spark at the same voltage, no matter the rpm, but they're not perfect.

For example, when you wish to check the spark in a car whose ignition is failing, and you don't have an ohmeter at hand, you disconect the spark plug and you put the end of the plug near the block, to see the spark jumping between the spark plug electrodes.

Spark jumping in a "primitive" test of the ignition coil: the higher the rpm, the spark seems to be more bluish
Image

When I've done that, you can see that the spark that jumps it's "bluer" as rpms increase. Thus, I deduce, the spark has less "power" at low rpm. I've seen that in a model 66 car without electronic ignition, I don't think this is important is newer cars.

Point 1: well, here is the animation where I took the images from (you'll need flash to watch it):

Animation of valve overlap (you need Flash or a Flash plug-in in your browser to watch it)

If you cannot watch the animation, follow me for a moment:

When the cylinder starts the intake stroke, air is still (the piston is just starting to move).

Now, the lower the cylinder goes, more and more air enters the cylinder, right?

When the piston reaches BDC (bottom dead center), that is, the low point of its movement, the air is rushing in at top speed, entering the cylinder through the intake valve.

Piston at the bottom of its movement: the air is entering at high speed, the piston barely has started to move upwards, so air continues to enter
Image

If you close the intake at BDC, you'll shut the intake when the air is at top speed. So, you left the valve open for a little, because even if the piston starts to move upwards after the BDC, the air is not going to "feel" that movement instantly: the "compression wave" has to move from the piston head towards the opening for the air to stop entering.

Under that circumstances, even when the piston is moving upwards, air continues to enter the cylinder for some milliseconds. So, you left the intake open a little beyond BDC.

Now, imagine the opposite: the piston is at the top of its movement, in the exhaust stroke, air is exiting.

The air exits faster when the cylinder reaches TDC (top dead center), that is, the topmost point of its movement, right?

Piston at the top dead center: air is still exiting at high speed, so it pulls some air from the intake (if you open the intake valve some milliseconds before TDC)
Image

So, if you open the intake valve a little BEFORE TDC, the fumes, that are exiting from the cylinder through the exhaust valve at top speed, "pull" some air from the intake valve, helping some extra air to enter the cylinder. This is called "scavenging".

So, a valve camshaft is a compromise: at low rpm you do not want overlap, the air is not rushing in and out at high speeds.

At high rpm you need the overlap to take in account the inertia or impulse of the air entering and exiting.

In F1 cars you have a camshaft optimized for high RPM: this is the reason why idle racing engines misfire so much and why it's so hard to start a car from the pits, at low rpm, stalling the engine: there is too much overlap when the engine is idling.

That's the best explanation I can give.

On a side note, if the engine has fixed cams, you can't control your overlap without changing the cams, but the effects caused by changing the back pressure in the exhaust pipe are the same.

When you reduce back pressure, it is equivalent to increasing valve overlap, and when you increase back pressure, it is the same as decreasing the amount of valve overlap.

An engine with less overlap will give you more torque and less HP. The opposite is also true: an engine with more overlap will give you more HP and less torque.

That's why some people will say, "you need a muffler for torque", or, "you'll have more high-end, but less torque, if you run straight exhaust".

By reducing back pressure in an exhaust system, you increase high-end horsepower at the cost of low-end torque. For example, low overlap cams are called "RV" because they're used in recreational vehicles, that tow large loads and need to have high torque.

On the contrary, high RPM engines with high overlap tend to have more HP and less torque.

As you can imagine, racing engines, with almost no backpressure and no mufflers, create the same effect as valve overlap: they pull unburnt air and fuel from the cylinder and hence, flames on the exhaust.

On top of that:

- you close the throttle, because flames appear when you "coast the vehicle" or you brake, thus creating vacuum on the intake of fuel, sucking fuel from the "idle" ports (idle ports, or whatever the english name, are ports that inject fuel to mantain the engine idling when you don't push the throttle pedal).
- the spark is weak because the engine is not at top rpm (at least in some cars).
- the exhaust valve is open while the intake valve is also open at TDC, between exhaust and intake strokes.
- the droplets might be larger, as EfiOz points out (although I've seen flames in carburated cars).
- the engine manufacturer might have designed the engine map to throw extra fuel under those circumstances to cool the engine.

... so the engine expels unburnt fuel through the exhaust: you get flames.

Yes, it's more or less cool, but you'll deposit carbon on piston heads and increase wear of first piston ring (because of carbon on the cylinder walls).
Ciro

Crafty
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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just a little thought I had whilst reading this..

I have seen engines mapped (turbo engines admittedly) that use small amounts of fuel at various points to aid cooling inside the cylinder, usually high boost / low throttle situations (i.e. overrun when the engine is being pushed).
Naturally this fuel is not ignited inside the cylinder.

Just wondered if this was a contributing factor in the subject being discussed here.

millerjam
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Just a quick thought about scavenging...
Obviously this has its uses in very high performance applications such as F1 or Motogp as engines are being revved extrememly highly when compared to your standard road car engine. However in most road car cases its advantageous to have a smaller valve overlap around TDC at higher rpms (say around 4000-6000 rpm)as the effect of internal exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) has a detrimental effect on maximum power. Obvously if your exhaust and inlet valve are both open at TDC then a small percentage of the exhaust gas is going to be "sucked" back into the cylinder as the piston moves back down towards BDC. Which is where my reasoning gets a little confusing!
This obviously isn't a problem in high revving applications as the inertia of the exhaust gases at large rpms is high enough (due to its high speed) to avoid exhaust gases being pulled back into the engine cylinder... I guess.

So does anyone have an idea of what sort of rpm an engine has to be operating at before the inertia of the exhaust gases counteracts the effect of internal EGR for a given amount of valve overlap? i.e. at what engine speed roughly does it become beneficial in terms of power to use a large valve overlap design.

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redline
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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My race bike started popping and throwing out flames when I tuned it for smooth throttle transition. What I did was basically put additional amount of fuel in a 0% 2% 5% throttle opening positions. It cured jerky throttle response but every time I chop the throttle I get big flames coming out of the exhaust. With so little air coming into the engine there is no way all that additional fuel gets burned. However, I use this fuel map only at the track so the spark plugs have time to clean themselves during full throttle runs. Street riding like this will kill them I no time.

pipex
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Crafty wrote: I have seen engines mapped (turbo engines admittedly) that use small amounts of fuel at various points to aid cooling inside the cylinder, usually high boost / low throttle situations (i.e. overrun when the engine is being pushed).
Anti-Lag systems for Turbo engines are in some way related to this?
I remember that in rally the engine controller injects some amount of excess fuel when changing gears to prevent the slow down in the turbo blades...

best regards
"We will have to wait and see".

shconer
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I think it's just simply that when the driver lets off the throttle and immediately onto the brakes there is a small moment where the tail end of the rapidly injected fuel is trapped in the air box while the throttle body is closing and the engine is quickly decelerating causing a rich air:fuel mixture to ignite in the exhaust. Compounded by aggressive air:fuel strategy, extreme camshaft specification and, high exhaust temperature, in addition to low back pressure and short overall exhaust system length creates a limited capacity to suppress the flames.

Crafty
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Not so sure that anti lag dumps extra fuel in, normally ignition is retarded by like 20 degrees, this usually means the fuel gets ignited when it meets the hot exhaust manifold, explodes, spins the turbo.


The very early anti lag systems simply injected fuel directly into the exhaust manifold via additional injectors! crude to say the least.
I believe some WRC teams played with injecting air into the exhaust manifold to emulate anti lag and keep the turbo spinning, I dont know if this ever got used.

pipex
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Thanks for the info Crafty. I didn't knew that and i forgot the timing...

Best regards
"We will have to wait and see".

Linkeleo
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Hi Guys,

This morning in korea we saw Jenson Buttons Exhaust catch fire when he came into the pits.

Mclaren said the reason was 'we were trying different engine modes and it overheated'

from what i gather the more turned down the fuel/ecu settings are, the more oxygen there is in the exhaust, so the more potential for fire. Do you think this is an indication of Mclaren hiding their true pace?

Gatecrasher
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Linkeleo wrote:Hi Guys,

This morning in korea we saw Jenson Buttons Exhaust catch fire when he came into the pits.

Mclaren said the reason was 'we were trying different engine modes and it overheated'

from what i gather the more turned down the fuel/ecu settings are, the more oxygen there is in the exhaust, so the more potential for fire. Do you think this is an indication of Mclaren hiding their true pace?
Since the exhaust manfolds already glow with the heat, running on a different engine map will incrase temps a little bit however if somethings on fire it sure isn't the "Titanium" headers. Sounds more like some bodywork got a little too close.

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strad
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Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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I would have sworn I already posted this..
UNLESS you are running a magneto then as the dwell time goes down the power of the spark goes down.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Crafty
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Joined: 22 May 2005, 22:53

Re: Exhaust flames on overrun

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Wow, I already posted to this thread! hmm

Far as buttons exhaust goes they were probably running lean ? as I understand it a lean engine will have higher EGTs, which means a hotter exhaust and therefore more likely to ignite something ?