Team Orders/#1 driver - The only way to win championships

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Which "dirty" titles aren't accepted?

When people look at records it will say Schumacher was a 7 time world champion period.
Not that he was "dirty" or the his titles were dirty. To say that they are lesser titles because he won unfairly is not respecting the sport. The FIA deemed them legal enough, so if you dont like it may I suggest you watch another sport?

Same goes for Alonso, if he wins this year it wont have been because he is "dirty".
It amuses me no end to see that great drivers like Alonso and Schumacher can still be berated on these pages for winning! It is what they are paid to do after all.

Is it just that "their man" was overshadowed by either of these 2 at some point and they have an axe to grind??

[internetf1fan]

But having one driver as #1 from the very start of the season is not what F1 is about.

F1 is all about winning. Ferrari does everything they can do to make sure they win.
The best way to win is have a #1 driver from the start and maximising his points at every possible race.

McLaren and RBR cannot win with one hand tied behind their back when Ferrari is concentrating on the single driver. Hopefully they will realize this.

Look at what happened with McLaren concentrated on Hamilton in 08. He delivered them their first WDC is years. Now they brought in Button and restructred the team to make the team more "equal" etc... That's not how you win Championships. Focus on the single driver and you will have more chance of winning.

[manchild]

Of c'mon "FIA deemed them legal". Organization that had "concentration camp sex games make me horny" nazi pervert on top (the one that succeeded ex-French Waffen SS volunteer on top) currently with ex-Ferrari team boss on top.

How legitimate and unbiased that must be! Why would anyone respect decisions of some self proclaimed interest group that has no moral and authority at all?

[zeph]

How legitimate and unbiased that must be! Why would anyone respect decisions of some self proclaimed interest group that has no moral and authority at all?

Agreed.

But if you want fair, go play checkers.

This is F1, a multi-billion dollar business. When the stakes are that high, power struggles come with the territory. Or did you think it was different in the FIFA? Or NBA?


edit:
This is bound to trigger a few smiles over at Ferrari/McLaren HQ's:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87723

Red Bull will not ask Sebastian Vettel to play a supporting role in Mark Webber's quest to win the Formula 1 World Championship title, despite the German's own chances slimming when he suffered an engine failure in the Korean Grand Prix.

....

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said it was too early for Vettel to give up on his own challenge, and that things could turn around quickly just as they had in Yeongam - where Webber began the race as the points leader before crashing out.

etc.etc.

[edited for brevity]

I feel that Webber's main struggle will not be with the competition but with his own team. Bummer.

[kishigae]

It has to be very obvious decision for Horner to promote WEB to #1 now... I mean, VET must help WEB win remaining two races (220+50=270). Even if ALO finishes both GPs in 2nd, then 231+36=267... I will not understand if VET and WEB are allowed to race each other as before
But having one driver as #1 from the very start of the season is not what F1 is about.

I agree, there are not many options for Red Bull. If Vettel wins both races (256 pts) and Webber comes in second (256 pts), Alonso could still be WDC arriving 3rd (261 pts) or even 3rd and 4th (258 pts). On the other hand, Webber will be WDC winning both races regardless of other drivers positions.

[Giblet]

Brawn - No orders, WDC and WCC winners.
Mclaren - No team orders, many championships.
Williams - No team orders, some championships.
Ferrari - Team orders, and many hollow feeling championships.

@ Zeph - Yes this is a multi billion dollar business, but it is still a -sport-, and believe it or not, many people in that sport are sportsmen, and place that value very high on the ladder.

Webber, an athlete and sportsman in many disciplines, would rather win a championship on his own mettle.

@ JET - I have to disagree, period . I feel many of Schumachers championships, while completely legit, are slightly tarnished, and this opinion is not one I carry alone. The stats wont change, but it's not like he had Kimi or Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate. I would feel his titles would be equal to someone like Senna who had to beat the best in the game at the time in order to rise to the top.

[WhiteBlue]

It sounds like Button and Whitmarsh are disagreed on the way forward by McLaren. Martin Whitmarsh expects Button to help Hamilton which Button refused already to do at the next race.

Horner already pointed out that both Red Bull drivers will race for their own chance. The line on that has been set long ago by Didi Mateschitz.

So one does not expect team orders for Brazil unless it comes from Ferrari again.

[imightbewrong]

Brawn - No orders, WDC and WCC winners.
Mclaren - No team orders, many championships.
Williams - No team orders, some championships.
Ferrari - Team orders, and many hollow feeling championships.

Take a read up on williams team orders:
http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I feel many of Schumachers championships, while completely legit, are slightly tarnished, and this opinion is not one I carry alone. The stats wont change, but it's not like he had Kimi or Alonso or Hamilton as a teammate. I would feel his titles would be equal to someone like Senna who had to beat the best in the game at the time in order to rise to the top.

No one is questioning other greats, statistically Schumacher is the most succesfull driver ever. This does not mean he is the best driver ever.
But it still doesnt take away from his achievemnt.

There are many if's and buts, Senna arguably would have won in 94, 95, and 96, making him a 6 time champ and Schumacher would have lost out to 2.
My opinion there, and I can accept others may think otherwise.

You have to commend Schumacher on being there, remaining hungry and smashing all f1 records. He was at the right place at the right time, but he was a reason for it. A perfect F1 storm. Team, Team boss, Driver and technical prowess all came together to achieve those amazing stats.

I prefer to call Schumacher F1's most succesful F1 driver, and Senna it's best.

[xpensive]

I think RBR made up their mind long time ago on which driver to give priority, the one behind in the standings.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think RBR made up their mind long time ago on which driver to give priority, the one behind in the standings.

+1

[Mandrake]

Just looking at raw performance they were right with putting the focus to Vettel, or officially saying they don't favour any racer at all.

I also think, if RBR are in the position to manipulate the result in Brazil and / or Abu Dhabi they will decide on the fly.....that's the way I'd do it.

I still don't get how much hate Vettel is raising here. What has he done wrong? The Turkey accident? McLaren were close to doing the same in that race. He's braking the car more often than Webber? Well, the only thing he could be accused of is being faster than his teammate when his car failed, something he is paid for.

I also support McLaren for their not favouring any driver. Hamilton might have been the quicker one at the end of the season, but nevertheless Jenson was cleverer than LH in the beginning of the season where Hamilton was too hotheaded and gave away some good positions. Towards the end Hamilton made even more mistakes (Monza, Singapore) the only problem was that JB failed to deliver in the mean time.....he fell further behind while Hamilton had a couple of DNFs.

[747heavy]

Horner already pointed out that both Red Bull drivers will race for their own chance. The line on that has been set long ago by Didi Mateschitz.

So one does not expect team orders for Brazil unless it comes from Ferrari again.

Looks like they(RBR) had a change of heart lately.

Red Bull ready to evaluate team tactics
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87739

As for the general topic,
why is it so difficult to accept both ways as legetim and "fair game".
IMHO it should be up to the teams to choose there "modus operandi", the one which they see fit.
If one team want´s to let there drivers race until the bitter end, be it.
If another wants to take a more planed approach why not?
Who are we, to decide what is right or wrong, better or worse?
I´m fine for everybody to have his own opinion and preference, but why inflict this view on everyone, as the only way to go?

I´m sure this world, the sport and F1 is big enough, to accomodate both systems without any harm done.
I sure can´t speak (and don´t want to speak), for everyone, but I´m under the impression, that most of the uproar against team orders, comes from the underhanded nature, with which they where executed (forced by the FIA ruling).
I think most people could accept (may some don´t like or distaste it) the fact, that a team chooses a No.1 driver from the outset, and gears it´s championship approach around it.
Similar, to what is done in cycling (Tour de France) for example.
It never has seem to cause any controversy. People seem to accept and tolerate it, because they are aware of it from the outset, and know what to expect.
So if team xx want´s to pitch two similar drivers against each other, why not?
But if team yy decided, that it is better off to go with a proven No.1 driver and complement him, with a "safe" finisher for team points as No.2 - I can´t see much fault in it either.
Both systems have there pro and con´s, both can lead to a championship and both can backfire badly.

The fairness argument is a bit overused IMHO, as nobody was forced with a gun at there head to sign a No.2 contract.
And some drivers, made a decent living out of it, so everybody can find it´s niche.
There is no natural law, that governs life has to be/or is fair.

Just my opinion

[BMW_F1]

Brawn - No orders, WDC and WCC winners.
Mclaren - No team orders, many championships.

yeah alright!.
both Montoya and DC were victims of team orders.. Telling their drivers to not attempt to overtake after the last stops is a TEAM order, some drivers may feel they may have a chance to pass the leading driver driver..

[BMW_F1]

This notion that if is done at the end of the season (Kimi-Massa 07) as opposed to 3/4 of the season is BS.. when at the end the whole point is that each race result has the exact same proportional weight to the final standings of the WDC.. It comes down to simple math and that some teams may chose to do it earlier (as soon as it makes perfect sense) which is irrelevant.