I'm supporting not-Alonso

[ringo]

Massa is like a crashed car, no matter how you fix and patch it up, it will never be the same.
He was faster than kimi in 2008 and yet Alonso thinks kimi is as quick as him.
Alonso is constantly 3 tenths quicker than Massa, it's hard to accept massa is 100% if Alonso is indirectly 3/10 faster than Kimi.

I'm no kimi fan either, i'm an Alonso and Hamilton fan but i don't think these 2 drivers are that damn fast.

Alonso is a great driver in my eyes, but for some reason i rather him get 3 championships when Lewis has 2. Lewis needs to catch up first, then have both drive for ferrari to duke it out.

So sorry Alonso, much respect, but you cannot be allowed to win this year.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Andrew
Massa would get pummeled at Red Bull by Vettel. Vettel will not leave so long as Red Bull have Newey.
Webber too would have a field day with Massa. It actually pains me to type it

Massa just is not good enough, I dont even think he was that special at Sauber. How many eyebrows were raised when Ferrari said Massa would replace Barrichelo?

Alonso is on another planet compared to Massa. He came to Ferrari and is ousting Massa from the off. Cynics would say team orders, I say its because Massa hasn't an answer.

[Paul]

Well, Massa is a great driver for Ferrari from the point of putting all the eggs in one basket. He is consistently slower than Alonso, so they only had to use team orders once this season. Now if McLaren clearly favoured Hamilton, they would have to tell Button to let him through or not overtake quite a few times. If Red Bull clearly favoured either Webber or Vettel, they would have to do that in like 50% of all races.

[segedunum]

Massa is like a crashed car, no matter how you fix and patch it up, it will never be the same. He was faster than kimi in 2008 and yet Alonso thinks kimi is as quick as him. Alonso is constantly 3 tenths quicker than Massa, it's hard to accept massa is 100% if Alonso is indirectly 3/10 faster than Kimi.

It's an interesting paradox is it not? But, that's the way logic goes out of the window depending on how well a driver is doing at a team at any given time, how much momentum he has and how much he is in or out of favour. However, even when Massa was in favour he was unable to deliver a championship at Ferrari and would have needed a severe following wind to fall over the winning line.

Evaluating drivers and their speed like this is pretty pointless because people see drivers move to different teams and see their fortunes rise and fall and think they are comparing apples with apples, but they aren't. Indirectly comparing drivers is even worse.

Alonso seems to be the driver this year that many thought he was, but he is at a team he has control over in a way he thought he would have at McLaren. Compare Hockenheim this year to Indianapolis 2007 where exactly the same vitriol could be heard over the radio. There are some things you can compare. Had he stayed at McLaren against a naturally fast driver with more experience things might well not have looked so favourable, and can anyone say with a straight face that Alonso would have preferred Raikkonen as a team mate?

[BMW_F1]

..and can anyone say with a straight face that Alonso would have preferred Raikkonen as a team mate?

why not?, people seem to forget that when he signed for Mclaren, Kimi and Montoya were the current drivers. .

[BMW_F1]

Massa is like a crashed car, no matter how you fix and patch it up, it will never be the same.
He was faster than kimi in 2008 and yet Alonso thinks kimi is as quick as him.
Alonso is constantly 3 tenths quicker than Massa, it's hard to accept massa is 100% if Alonso is indirectly 3/10 faster than Kimi.

I'm no kimi fan either, i'm an Alonso and Hamilton fan but i don't think these 2 drivers are that damn fast.

I doubt that Massa is quicker than Kimi - He definitely did a better job in 08/09. I think that the two are equally fast, maybe Kimi could be slightly faster "but only" when the car is perfectly suited to his style - the problem is, as one of Ferrari's engineers put it when assessing Kimi, that only happens 2-3 times per season. The fastest drivers are the ones that can extract the most performance out of a car consistently and don't suffer too much in lap time due to adjusting their driving.
There are some good reads from Peter Sauber about Massa and Kimi.. Massa was always known for his raw speed, but he was always criticized for his lack of consistency..- Kimi on the other hand was very consistent and fast at Mclaren but with Ferrari it became a different story.. -

There is nothing wrong with accepting Alonso is 3 tenths quicker than Massa.. - That is just how it is - Massa was pretty fast from day one this season, he's just not been able to keep up with Alonso, who happens to be a a better driver in all categories.

In 06, Massa never outqualified MS (fuel corrected) and was always .3 - .5 seconds slower than him..

[Sean H]

Kimi was plenty fast, 35 fastest laps don't happen by accident. Kimi had other flaws, but speed was rarely one of them. I would say general lack of interest at times is what probably drove most engineers mad. He just wanted to get in and drive, nothing more.

As far as Massa, he will always be a number 2 at Ferrari mainly for the fact they will not bring in anybody who would promote Massa to 1. Had he brought a WDC to the Scuderia, he very well may have tipped the scales into his favor, but that didn't happen and likely never will now with Alonso there.

As far as the orginal topic, the most wins and points so far this year and doing it in a less than dominant car, that pretty much says it all about Fred.

[zeph]

Alonso is on another planet compared to Massa. He came to Ferrari and is ousting Massa from the off. Cynics would say team orders, I say its because Massa hasn't an answer.

Except in Germany. Massa had him beat there.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yes Zeph,

But the trend is Alonso is better over a season, and by some margin. Coulthard beat Hakkinen a few times, Rubinho beat Schumacher a couple of times. A driver cannot always be faster.

I think Alonso's skill also lies in setup and how to extract the maximum from the tyres. He is fiendishly quick, but allied to his ability to hit the ground running I say he is probably F1's most complete driver at the moment.

[segedunum]

why not?, people seem to forget that when he signed for Mclaren, Kimi and Montoya were the current drivers. .

They weren't. Everyone knew that Raikkonen was going to Ferrari then and Montoya was already on his way out.

...the problem is, as one of Ferrari's engineers put it when assessing Kimi, that only happens 2-3 times per season.

Who on Earth said that? Raikkonen certainly didn't become champion driving like that.

[aral]

Massa is like a crashed car, no matter how you fix and patch it up, it will never be the same.

Thats a rather cruel and insensitive remark!
Felipe has had considerable courage to return after such a horrendous accident. Hopefully he can be fully up to speed again next year.

[BMW_F1]

why not?, people seem to forget that when he signed for Mclaren, Kimi and Montoya were the current drivers. .

They weren't. Everyone knew that Raikkonen was going to Ferrari then and Montoya was already on his way out.

Montoya on his way out at the end of the Brazilian GP 2005 when he had just toppled Raikkonen for the victory.?. I don't think so.. JPM plummeted in 06, but he had a very strong second half in 05 (3 wins and 2 DNF's from the lead). Kimi to Ferrari back then were just rumors just like everyone thought he would be be going to mclaren this year and not Button or that he would end up in Mercedes and not Shumi.. It was Alonso's dream to drive for Mclaren and it didn't really matter who he teammate was, most certainly at the time he could not be sure that both JPM and Kimi would be out.. In 2006 Ron was still trying to negotiate with Kimi, had Kimi said "yes", it would have been Kimi and Alonso in 2007..

...the problem is, as one of Ferrari's engineers put it when assessing Kimi, that only happens 2-3 times per season.

Who on Earth said that? Raikkonen certainly didn't become champion driving like that.

I read on one of Nigel Roebuck's articles for Motorsport Magazine if I am not mistaken..
In 2007 Massa matched Kimi throughout most of the season, he was actually leading Kimi going into Monza but after his DNF at that race the team went full force behind Kimi for the WDC and their strategy pay off at the end.. Also that year Ferrari had a dominant car (see Massa's pole count).. as opposed to this year's Ferrari, where Alonso will always have two cars that are faster than his at every race weekend and three that are equally fast.

[segedunum]

Kimi to Ferrari back then were just rumors just like everyone thought

Sorry, but every man and his dog knew Raikkonen was going to Ferrari from 2005. There was even an instance where someone asked where he got the Enzo from in his garage......

I read on one of Nigel Roebuck's articles for Motorsport Magazine if I am not mistaken..

Never read it, sorry. I have read several comments from Dyer and Stella that say otherwise though...... Put simply, Massa was never a World Champion when he had the ideal opportunities. That's the bottom line here.

It's all a bit pointless though. I never cease to be amazed how many people really want to comment endlessly about a guy who is no longer in Formula 1.......

[BMW_F1]

Kimi to Ferrari back then were just rumors just like everyone thought

Sorry, but every man and his dog knew Raikkonen was going to Ferrari from 2005. There was even an instance where someone asked where he got the Enzo from in his garage......

I read on one of Nigel Roebuck's articles for Motorsport Magazine if I am not mistaken..

Never read it, sorry. I have read several comments from Dyer and Stella that say otherwise though...... Put simply, Massa was never a World Champion when he had the ideal opportunities. That's the bottom line here.

It's all a bit pointless though. I never cease to be amazed how many people really want to comment endlessly about a guy who is no longer in Formula 1.......

I don't buy it.. the rumors only intensified in 06.. Kimi never got his Enzo until then. From my neck of the woods it was frequently discussed that Kimi went to Ferrari "Because" Alonso landed at Mclaren - basically the complete opposite of what you are thinking, so it is all subjective depending on who you ask. The facts are Alonso SIGNED with MClaren in 2005 while both Kimi and Montoya were still employed..
Kimi is WDC material just like Button and JV were..- Massa could have easily been a WDC since he had a dominant car at his disposal but he was perhaps not as good as Lewis, and Ferrari also let him down in Hungary and Singapore meanwhile Lewis had a more reliable car/team. Any driver can win 1 WDC provided that they have a dominant car and beat their teammate.. The phrase WDC material is meaningless because most people through JB, based on his past performances, could never win a title and last year he did just that and Webber can do the same this year.. - A driver who is constantly performing at top level and winning titles or at least contending for titles every season - now, that's different.

[segedunum]

I don't buy it.. the rumors only intensified in 06..

It was long reported from mid-2005. Everyone knows exactly how their cards will fall, even if no one else does. You don't sign a contract a year early on that basis. Just as Raikkonen knew Schumacher wouldn't be there when he turned up Alonso knew that Raikkonen wouldn't be there and Montoya wouldn't likely get in the way. Let's face it, Montoya wasn't Raikkonen in 2005.

Point is, Alonso has always moved teams on the understanding that he will get the control he desires. That's why he was only at McLaren for one season.