How stiff are F1 tyres?

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EAKMotorsports
EAKMotorsports
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Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 07:17

Re: how stiff are F1 tyres?

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So sdimm how is going your tires physics? In this year I saw on Globo TV Luciano Burti saying that f1 tires uses about 14psi.
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EAKMotorsports
EAKMotorsports
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Joined: 31 Jan 2007, 07:17

Re: how stiff are F1 tyres?

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EAKMotorsports wrote:So sdimm how is going your tires physics? In this year I saw on Globo TV Luciano Burti saying that f1 tires uses about 14psi.
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... 7/fia.html
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Crazy Bored
Crazy Bored
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Joined: 09 Aug 2009, 03:29
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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The Williams FW31 in iRacing uses around 12 psi cold, and hot temps can be from 17-20 psi. That's supposed to be correct according to Williams.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: how stiff are F1 tyres?

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mep wrote:I just stepped over that and think you might see it:
http://www.motorsport-total.com/videos/f1/2880
(after commercial)
Sorry that it is in German, the most interesting point they said is that pressure makes up to 70% of tire stiffness.
What perhaps would be useful is to make a static vertical load analysis of both rim and the entire wheel?

- Acting on the rim itself is only the tyre-wall stiffness, as pressure is equally distributed all around.

- Acting on the entire wheel is tyre-wall stiffness plus the tyre-pressure times contact-patch area.
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Tire sidewall deflection and stiffness are not constants. Statically, tire sidewall stiffness is determined by its structure and by the tensile hoop forces created by internal inflation pressure. The wheel rim pushing down on the sidewall wants to compress and buckle it. The internal inflation pressure wants to push it back into its normal equalized shape.

Dynamically, additional sidewall tensile forces are created by the CF of the spinning tire carcass. These forces increase at the square of the tire's rotational angular velocity.
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DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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I would certainly agree that the mechanical properties of tyres are complex & difficult to quantify reliably, riff_raff. A couple of comments on your post, if I may.

You mention sidewall hoop stress as contributing to sidewall stiffness. I would suggest that sidewall shear modulus & stress also contribute, probably significantly in some cases, if not all.

You also mention additional tensile forces caused by rotation. I agree, but how that is split between the equivalent of "preload" and a genuine increase in stiffness is hard to assess, I think. I have seen a model of tyre stiffness compiled (from track data, I believe) by a group who should know, & this did include a V^2 term. It also assumed that the pure load-deflection slope was constant. Now I can disprove the second (tyres have a "rising rate" characteristic), & that raises the question in my mind whether the V^2 term was caused by rotational speed, or because downforce (& hence mean load) also increases proportional to V^2 (track data, don't forget).

In fact, I think it is necessary to consider carefully the definition of stiffness. I executed a series of tests on a single, non-rotating, tyre a few years ago in an attempt to improve my understanding of tyre properties. The tyre was mounted on a wheel located by a stiff spindle mounted in a modified "dyno" frame. The tyre was loaded by an hydraulic actuator with good position & velocity control (position, as observed by a concentrically installed LVDT, was held with an accuracy of around 0.02 mm). I was as careful as I could be about maintaining constant tyre pressure & temperature, & each run was preceded by a stabilizing period to ensure that load/deflection was consistent.

Here is a plot of a selection of results from the tests. Run 331 was recorded whilst the actuator described a slow (20 second period) sine wave. The regression slope was 345 N/mm, and the rising rate characteristic is obvious, I think. Runs 326, 329 & 332 were recorded whilst the actuator described relatively fast (5 Hz) sine waves of constant amplitude, each run having a different mean load. The regression slopes were, respectively, 334, 395 & 408 N/mm. (again showing a rising rate characteristic). Now, if the three high frequency runs are thought of as three steady state conditions with superimposed "dither", then the mean values of the three sets of measurements (shown as yellow circles) can be used to obtain yet another estimate of "stiffness". These lie close to a straight line (shown in red) with a slope of 289 N/mm.

The obvious question, I suppose, is what is the vertical stiffness of this particular tyre? I suspect that if you were interested in the average deflection of the tyre at a given mean load you would choose one value, but if you were interested in the way the tyre interacts locally with the suspension (as I am, usually), you might well choose another....

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Doesn't help that the tire stiffness, under equivalent conditions and test procedures, will be noticeably different after minutes of use.
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DaveW
DaveW
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Taken at face value, JT, that was an irrational comment. Be grateful for an explanation.

Belatti
Belatti
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Location: Argentina

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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An inter-test hysteresis caused by chemical changes due to heat cycles? The sidewalls being worked out of the elastic/proportional limit? Random sidewall buckling mechanism? Or does tyres have a soul and they behave according their mood, JT?
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Jersey Tom
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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DaveW wrote:Taken at face value, JT, that was an irrational comment. Be grateful for an explanation.
Just saying that as we're looking at this information, the problem of "sorting things out" is made more difficult by how much the tire evolves. Bag of rubber and fabric whose mechanical properties are a function of heat and strain history.

Any new tire is going to change with "break-in" after it takes some loaded revolutions. Beyond that, the more you cycle it the more it changes. Can be 10+% different from start to finish.
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DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Thanks for that, JT. Actually, the tyre had been "scrubbed in" before the tests. But the point of my post was to highlight the need to be careful about definitions, about measurements, & the way they are interpreted. That would have been unaffected by the state of the tyre, I think.

I took the opportunity to carry out the tests after I had been visited by a senior person from the company that you publicize so widely to show me why my estimates of tyre stiffness were wrong. We agreed eventually that my estimates were correct, but in the context of a different definition of stiffness. The tests demonstrated that difference quite clearly, I thought.

p.s. I believe some refer to the alternative versions of stiffness as "secant" & "tangent". The "tangent" stiffness (the local slope of the load/deflection curve) is the one I calculate as being more relevant for suspension analysis.
Last edited by DaveW on 01 Nov 2010, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.

Belatti
Belatti
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Location: Argentina

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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JT, have you got some correlation regarding the way the driver breaks-in the tyre and the way the tyre takes towards stiffness?
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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DaveW wrote:But the point of my post was to highlight the need to be careful about definitions, about measurements, & the way they are interpreted.
Well that I certainly agree with :)

And no. No "correlation" really. When a tire breaks in it softens up a bit. That's all I got.
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xpensive
xpensive
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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Belatti wrote:JT, have you got some correlation regarding the way the driver breaks-in the tyre and the way the tyre takes towards stiffness?
I'm sure it has something to do with Planck's constant, doesn't it JT?
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Jersey Tom
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Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

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xpensive wrote:
Belatti wrote:JT, have you got some correlation regarding the way the driver breaks-in the tyre and the way the tyre takes towards stiffness?
I'm sure it has something to do with Planck's constant, doesn't it JT?
That's absolutely absurd to even suggest. It is closely related however, to Avogadro's number.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.