Team Orders/#1 driver - The only way to win championships

[Raptor22]

blah blah blah.....

Webber, an athlete and sportsman in many disciplines, would rather win a championship on his own mettle.
blah blah blah
.

which explains why Webber has been politicking since June to have the supportonly him in the WDC....

The Aussie is one of the biggest hypocrits in the game. One minute he says the team must support him, then next he says he wants it fairly. Then he is moanin about being number two and the is grateful for the teams support.

oh what a great champion... [ sarcasm off]

The issue for red Bull is that Webber has created a situation n the team where the equality is broadcast as inequality in the english speaking media. This is an old trick used by many drivers like that creep Nelson Piquet.
Red Bull now need to be so careful that nothing happens to Webbers car that the situation is unequal, Webber gets the attention and therefore the most reliable equipment.
Has Vettel complained about inequality? nope he just races.

Red Bull needs a stronger leader, Chris Horner is just too soft to make the decisions required of a top level manager. He does not have what it takes. He's a choker and he is leading a team of chokers.

Does Webber deserve to be the team number 1? Only if you are of the opinion that deliberately unsettling team harmony to suit your own aims is in the best interest of the team.

If we go back through history, there was always a politician in top level teams. People claim Senna was not a politician and thats utter rubbish. He was one of the most astute politicians. Not as publicas Prost and that made him more dangerous.

so to answer the question, should a team have a number one driver? Eventually yes. Usually, the number 1 river settles into that position naturally. Thats how Schumacher did it.The number one driver is the one that gets the mechanics behind him, the driver who makes things happen for himself.

Red Bull are in a situation where the driver who has achieved that, has the luck of Nigel Mansell. I think he should ditch red 5.

Currently logic would dictate support Webber. But I think Alonso (spits) is more deserving of the title.

[Giblet]

I'm not saying that team orders have not been around in these teams, but I am saying that Rubens for example never had a chance as he was basically contracted to be a second fiddle to MS.

This was not the case in other teams I have mentioned AFAIK. Team orders during different points in a championship is not the same as a clear cut #1 or #2 driver.

[Raptor22]

Rubens never has a chance because he:

1) did not want to do as much testing mileage as Schumacher. He prefered to stay in Brasil over the winter.

2) just was not as fast as Schumacher, except on rare occasions.

3) had more troubles because he tended to be harder on the engine and gearbox i.e he would hold revs a little longer, change gears when a rear wheel was airborne etc that sort of thing. Schumacher tended to let the ar ride out the situation and only got on the gas when the wheels were ready. However his diferential settings tended toward a tighter end and hence he was not the gentlest character on rear tyres. His fronts always looked better than Rubens.

Rubens was simply just not as fast, not as polished and not as hard a worker as Schumacher so the team never really gravitated toward him. He played himself outside and he prefered it that way but expected equal treatment.
Schumacher on the other hand knew the mechanics, and knew them well, to the point where he would go karting with them.
Schumacher was simply more part of the family. It did not require a contract for Rubens to be number 2. He made the bed he ended up laying in.

[Giblet]

I think we are talking about two different things

The thread is about if a team -must- have a #1 and #2 and/or team orders to win a championship. I am just trying to say that that is not the case, as proven on occasion by Mclaren, Williams, and Brawn.

[internetf1fan]

Unless you have a dominant car ( e.g. Brawn last year), you MUST have a #1 driver to win WCs. Look at the past couple of decades. Pretty much every championship came from having a #1 driver. And a couple of championships lost due to letting teammates take points away from each other.

[internetf1fan]

So there you go, with team orders RBR could have sealed the championship by now if they had focused on one single driver. But now, who knows whats going to happen in Abu Dhabi.

Hopefully they have learnt their lessons and have a #1 and #2 driver and swap drivers around at every opportunity to gain max points for the #1 driver.

[segedunum]

If you want to win a constructors' championship, where all the money is, you must have two drivers who can challenge for races wins.

[gridwalker]

Usually, the number 1 river settles into that position naturally. Thats how Schumacher did it.

Absolute rubbish : from the context of your words, you are talking about the Ferrari years, but you should be under no illusions that he walked into that team with a guarantee of nothing less than unquestioned number one status ... at the time, even Bernie Ecclestone was shouting to any reporter who would listen about how he had brokered Schumacher's move so that they could "usher in an era of Ferrari".

To place that kind of an expectation upon the shoulders of a driver who was moving to a team that hadn't won a championship for over 16 years (at the time) would have been utterly ludicrous without offering that driver some cast iron guarantees.

Schumacher didn't earn that status from within the team, it was granted to him before he even thought about putting on the red overalls.

[Rob01]

The drivers championship pays nothing. Just the hardware. Red Bunk have won all the big money with the constructors.

[ackzsel]

I'm wondering. Do teams care about the drivers WC at all?

I guess Ferrari did in the Ferrari/MSC years, but that, I guess again, could just be because MSC demanded that in his contract. I do wonder how significant the drivers WC is to the teams.

[marcush.]

tbh you cannot afford to have too much competition within the team ,unless you are dominating anyways.
RedBull did act as if they were dominating but they failed to score on sundays far too often in times when car related dnfs are not the rule but an exception.
Add to this more than once each driver making major driving mistakes in the race and add to this a major tangle between both on track as well...thats simply too much for one season even if you have a one second advantage per lap.

[Green Genes]

I'm sure having a world champion driver is worth more than a few sponsorship dollars to the teams they drive for.

[internetf1fan]

Not having #1, allowing team mates to take points away from each other, not swapping positions to let the #1 driver build a buffer against DNFs etc = recipe for disaster as RBR are finding out now.

Hopefully they've learnt their lesson and will use the regulations for maximum gain next year.

[zeph]

Not having #1, allowing team mates to take points away from each other, not swapping positions to let the #1 driver build a buffer against DNFs etc = recipe for disaster as RBR are finding out now.

Hopefully they've learnt their lesson and will use the regulations for maximum gain next year.

I think there's no question that Vettel will have full #1 status next year, as he has had this year.

[Giblet]

They can still go to bed WCC, proving they can run with the big dogs, they have increased their sponsorship, and still have a huge shot at the WDC as a bonus.

They can still say they did it without a clear #1 or #2, and go the high road that some fans actually appreciate.

I don't appreciate Ferrari's in your face politics, and if I was a company, I would rather side my money on a team who was honest, and a still a front runner for both titles like Red Bull.

Saying it is the only way to win championships is obviously utter Red Bull, as they have already won one.