Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[segedunum]

All in all they beat Renault the almost masters of this year in development.

Yer they did, and we know exactly why that is - because Petrov scored nowhere near the amount of points that Kubica did. If Petrov was just three quarters the driver of Kubica then it all makes for somewhat uncomfortable reading. It's just not a great benchmark.

[NewtonMeter]

All in all they beat Renault the almost masters of this year in development.

Yer they did, and we know exactly why that is - because Petrov scored nowhere near the amount of points that Kubica did. If Petrov was just three quarters the driver of Kubica then it all makes for somewhat uncomfortable reading. It's just not a great benchmark.

Yeah and if Schumacher was three quarters the driver Rosberg was this year, the result would still favour Merc.

Put another way, if Renault had 2 Kubicas driving and Merc 2 Rosbergs, it would be exactly the same result.

You can't look at Petrov (being the weak driver at Renault) without looking at Schumacher (the weak driver at Merc) and think it's a fair comparison.

Live with it.

[xpensive]

I'm certain that Petrov is rather flattered by the comparison!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Look I can do this too.

Had Brawn gone adventurous for 2010 we may be looking at Rosberg as the 2010 WDC.

Easy as pie.

[xpensive]

@JET; I keep comparing Brawn/Mercedes from 2009 to 2010 situation with Team Lotus going from 1978 to 1979.

While Lotus pulled out allt the stops to capitalize on their newly found venturi ground-effect with their 78/79 models
to a rather adventerous Lotus 80, Brawn/Mercedes played it safe, obviously thinking their advantage was enough.

Who got it right you reckon?

[lolzi]

@JET; I keep comparing Brawn/Mercedes from 2009 to 2010 situation with Team Lotus going from 1978 to 1979.

While Lotus pulled out allt the stops to capitalize on their newly found venturi ground-effect with their 78/79 models
to a rather adventerous Lotus 80, Brawn/Mercedes played it safe, obviously thinking their advantage was enough.

Who got it right you reckon?

That one's easy: Red Bull RB5-6

[xpensive]

Just like the FW07 did in 1979 perhaps?

[segedunum]

Yeah and if Schumacher was three quarters the driver Rosberg was this year, the result would still favour Merc.....You can't look at Petrov (being the weak driver at Renault) without looking at Schumacher (the weak driver at Merc) and think it's a fair comparison.

You're right that it's not a fair comparison. I'm sure that Petrov would love to be paid the money that Schumacher is on, rather than the reverse being the case. Renault got a paying driver and there was an upside in guaranteed money coming in but a downside in results. It was pretty clear what they were getting. With Schumacher it's not entirely clear where the upside was.

No matter how you cut it the situations of the two teams were not comparable, and yet Renault kept punching above their weight.

[marcush.]

tbh..
Petrov was hired because he got the money Renault needed.So without him Renault had not as much money for development .You are going round in circles here.
AND Petrov somehow managed to beat ,fair and square Kubica in abu dhabi...makes me think Petrov is not as bad as you are drawing a picture of him...a lot of drivers need to be nursed quite a bit to make them tick...to pressurerize them does not make the trick in most of the circumstances.

BUT most important Kubica is a proven racewinner and rated as high or higher than Rosberg ,but still did not outscore Rosberg.So why should this be a proof that Reanult had the better car and development?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

tbh..
Petrov was hired because he got the money Renault needed.So without him Renault had not as much money for development .You are going round in circles here.
AND Petrov somehow managed to beat ,fair and square Kubica in abu dhabi...makes me think Petrov is not as bad as you are drawing a picture of him...a lot of drivers need to be nursed quite a bit to make them tick...to pressurerize them does not make the trick in most of the circumstances.

BUT most important Kubica is a proven racewinner and rated as high or higher than Rosberg ,but still did not outscore Rosberg.So why should this be a proof that Reanult had the better car and development?

Indeed Marcush.
Petrov is no mug, he wouldnt be able to keep a Ferrari behind him for 40 odd laps if he was. The Merc was the better car throughout the year. The results, the laptimes the points, the qualifying... Everything says so(Friday free practice times excluded, as Renault like to showboat on these particular days).
Its no disgrace to Renault, it just means they were a bit slower.

[xpensive]

...
Ross Brawn knows exactly hwere to begin when designing an F1 car thats why was the Technical Director ad so successful at it.

I beg to differ, RB has no credible track-record of designing F1 cars, without Rory Byrne at Toleman/Benetton and Berrari he'd be nowhere. The title "Technical director" means next to zip in an engineering sense within a larger organization.

This is possibly where NH misunderstood the entire concept, thinking RB was a hands-on designer and not just a manager?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Norbert knew that much X, for christ sake the man doesnt have learning disabilities!

[xpensive]

Rory Byrne is 66, born in Pretoria SA whaddaya know, wonder if RB and MS are toying with the idea of...naah,
better get Nigel Stepney on board first perhaps?

But seriously, having given the Brawn/Mercedes situation a philosophical thought, in the world of engineering development, to which I belong, it is not at all uncommon that the copies becomes more successful than the original. It is rather simple really, it's just so much more attractive and satisfying to improve on someone else's idea than on your own such.

Just consider the options; "Oh, if you wanna go that way, then I can do it far better, let me show you!", vs "There was nothing wrong with my original design, perfect in everywhich way!" I deal with the attitude every waking hour really.

[mep]

Rory Byrne is 66, born in Pretoria SA whaddaya know, wonder if RB and MS are toying with the idea of...naah,
better get Nigel Stepney on board first perhaps?

Nigel Stepney
The guy that has stolen important documents and made sabotage to the cars at least during 2007 but maybe also during 2006.
You want to hire such a guy?
I would rather give some no name engineers a chance. I think people are to focused on big names like Stepney or Gascoyne and forget that nobody designs a F1 car alone. There are hundreds of engineers in the background which do the real work but nobody knows their names.

[marcush.]

I found this on the web:

Taken on as a trainee by the British Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell, near Didcot, Oxfordshire, Brawn spent five years studying instrumentation in the early 1970s. His passion was racing and in 1976 he quit the atomic industry and got a job with March Engineering at Bicester as a milling machine operator. This led to a job as a Formula 3 mechanic with March. He then moved over to Frank Williams's newly-formed Williams Grand Prix Engineering in an old carpet warehouse in Didcot - once again as a machinist.
As Williams found success with the FW07, Brawn moved up within the company, becoming a technician in Frank Dernie's research and development department and later - after the team had moved to its new factory in Basil Hill Road - an aerodynamicist, working in the team's own tunnel. After eight years with the team he followed fellow Williams man Neil Oatley (later technical director at McLaren) to Carl Haas's FORCE/Beatrice team where he was employed as an aerodynamicist.

When that team folded at the end of 1986 Brawn was offered the job of chief designer at Arrows.

Arrows had a good budget from American investment company USF&G and was using Megatron (ex-BMW turbo) engines. The A10 and the 1988 A10B were very successful with the team finishing fourth in the World Championship in 1988. This attracted the attention of Tom Walkinshaw, who was looking for someone to design a Jaguar sportscar for him at nearby Kidlington. Brawn joined TWR in 1989 and, after establishing a design center, he produced the XJR-14, the first sportscar to have state-of-the-art F1 technology. The Brawn-designed Jaguars won the 1991 Sportscar World Championship. In July that year Walkinshaw bought into the Benetton F1 team and in the autumn Brawn was appointed technical director of Benetton Formula, coordinating all technical aspects of the team, while Rory Byrne designed the cars in which Michael Schumacher won two successive championships in 1994 and 95.

Brawn moved to Ferrari in December 1996 as technical director and played an important role in building the team up towards Schumacher's World Championship victory in 2000.


I might add that XJR-14 not only trounced Sauber-Mercedes in the Group C days the chassis was good enough to win LeMans twice equipped with Porsche engines campaigned by Joest racing years later...
If somebody still insists that Brawn basically is a poor mechanic not knowing anything I´d say please a bit more respect for that man.He is working successfully in F1 since 34years now..you do not stay in such business for that long if you do not have what it takes.