2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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So it has to have inefficient poppet valves and four strokes, thats a shame.
Having a turbo that puts exhaust heat into the induction charge doesnt help and neither does all the miles of pipeing.
Bit pointless IMO, might just as well kept the old engine spec.

It certainly is not stretching the internal combustion engine to its final limits is it.

Agenda_Is_Incorrect
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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autogyro wrote:electric supercharged
That's a con as old as the internet. You would need a monstrous alternator that would actually offset the gains and would still leave the exhaust gases unused. There are 50 dollars "electric turbos" for sale and they really increase your power, if you just believe it hard enough.

How about plugging a domestic fan on your intake for that autogyro power and sound? And how about getting back on topic?
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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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How's this for a layout?
Image

Kind of solves some of the packaging issues, only that the turbo sits on the gearbox, kind of high, and requires pull rod suspension.

Lot's of space for other stuff though, and it reduces drag with a slimmer body, and also can blow the bridge wing above the diffuser.

I don't expect any regulations on engine or turbo orientation. So there is lots of money to be spent researching these things.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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ringo wrote: Image
Intercooler placement will be a major packaging decision. Is a return to the above (intercooler on one side, radiator opposite) expected? Or will we see one or two extra intakes for the intercooler?

autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Silly me, I didnt think did I.
Exhaust driven turbine driving a generator directly linked electricaly to an electric driven compressor.
Few pipes and no transfer of heat from the turbine housing to the compressor.
Might not even need an intercooler.
Both mounted low down on either side.
Still a shame about the poppet valves and the four strokes but I suppose it stretches ic production artificialy for another 20 years or so and keeps the banks happy.

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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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autogyro wrote:Silly me, I didnt think did I.
Exhaust driven turbine driving a generator directly linked electricaly to an electric driven compressor.
Few pipes and no transfer of heat from the turbine housing to the compressor.
Might not even need an intercooler.
Both mounted low down on either side.
Still a shame about the poppet valves and the four strokes but I suppose it stretches ic production artificialy for another 20 years or so and keeps the banks happy.
Be careful now!
The heat produced by a compressor is not from the turbine! It's from doing work on the air. That heat will be there regardless if the compressor is detatched from the turbine.
The temperature leaving the compressor will be 96 degrees celcius by my calculation. This is for a 76% efficiency. You will need an inter cooler!

Placing a generator in between the turbine and compressor would do more harm than good as well. A generator is 80% efficient. So the turbine to compressor relationship will behave as if it was 20% less efficient.

Mechanics are always more efficient than electrics. :mrgreen:

About the poppet valves, well with a rev limit, we wont see much change.
If there were non, the maybe we would see some coates valves or something.
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autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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I am always careful ringo.
Just think of all the control potential, you could even feed electric energy from the KERS to the compressor. You would only need a KERS generator then and not a combined motor /generator.
You might even be able to do away with most of the KERS storage.
Just use the KERS energy directly to drive the compressor, eventualy with AWKERS you could balance the output by feeding turbo/generator energy directly to the front axle motor/generators.

Of course the end result is going to be pure electric of course, possibly with sound generator.

Agenda_Is_Incorrect
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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ringo wrote:The heat produced by a compressor is not from the turbine! It's from doing work on the air. That heat will be there regardless if the compressor is detatched from the turbine.
The temperature leaving the compressor will be 96 degrees celcius by my calculation. This is for a 76% efficiency. You will need an inter cooler!

Placing a generator in between the turbine and compressor would do more harm than good as well. A generator is 80% efficient. So the turbine to compressor relationship will behave as if it was 20% less efficient.
Yes, and besides that you would have no energy left for the compounding, which means a less powerful Kers with a less powerful engine. Worst case scenario is what happens when engineering is replaced by conning.
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joseff
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Okay, how about autogyro's idea but with mechanical coupling?
So you have the turbine on the exhaust side, then a propshaft going through the engine, probably through the crankcase. The compressor is then on the intake side.
The intercooler goes on top and fed by the usual roll hoop ram intake

Benefits:
- shorter exhaust manifold
- shorter intake path
- vertical cylinders (better in terms of wear?)
- smaller footprint like a 2.4 V8

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flynfrog
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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joseff wrote:Okay, how about autogyro's idea but with mechanical coupling?
So you have the turbine on the exhaust side, then a propshaft going through the engine, probably through the crankcase. The compressor is then on the intake side.
The intercooler goes on top and fed by the usual roll hoop ram intake

Benefits:
- shorter exhaust manifold
- shorter intake path
- vertical cylinders (better in terms of wear?)
- smaller footprint like a 2.4 V8
how do you plan to spin a turbine fast enough if it is connected to the crank.

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machin
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Autogyro wrote:You might even be able to do away with most of the KERS storage.
I'm not sure I understand the lack of KERS storage... what are you going to do with the energy you recover whilst braking? You can't use it at that moment (i.e. you don't want to be generating engine power whilst braking) so you've got to store it somewhere....????

Agree with Ringo; if you're compressing air quickly you'll need an intercooler...
Last edited by machin on Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tok-tokkie
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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FF you misunderstood the connection between turbine & compressor. They are on opposite sides with just the coupling shaft passing through the CRANKCASE. That seems an excellent idea to me.

I agree that having part of the compressor stage electrically driven opens up many possibilities for utilising energy captured elsewhere and that energy can be placed in temporary storage.

marcush.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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in Indycars a lot of manufacturers put the turbo into the bellhousing ...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Link to German manufacturer comments
Hans Stuck, Volkswagen wrote:The conditions for a possible entrance of the Volkswagen group have been created. We have not decided anything, but we very much welcome the FIA's decision. The engine rules are a good starting point for Volkswagen in Formula One.
Norbert Haug, Mercedes wrote:The new rules will slash engine budgets by at least a quarter.
The development cost of the new engine formula is a one of. The up side is the engine cost reduction over the long run.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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Why redirect the energy Harvested from braking to storage?
Drive the compressor with it and use the 'electric' compressor to pull air from a low pressure DF area. Simply fit an induction wastegate.