Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I understand the idea behind lateral acceleration, but surely aero will help with this? Not so much as in a straight line perhaps, but at a track like Hungary with many slow speed corners where the vertical acceleration would be greater, you find cars with higher angled wings etc.

Excuse my basic understanding 747

On topic, The new chassis guy from Toyota appears to have some pedigree!

Toshi Iguchi’s Experience
Senior Suspension Designer
Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited
noviembre de 2010 — Present (2 months)

Senior Development Engineer
Toyota Motorsport GmbH
jenero de 2009 — noviembre de 2010 (1 year 11 months)

TF109 - TF110

Various performance enhancement projects in Advanced Project Group
Design Engineer
BMW Sauber
junio de 2006 — septiembre de 2008 (2 years 4 months)

F1.07 - F1.08
Composite design
Rear wing, crash structure
Design Engineer
McLaren Racing
octubre de 2000 — mayo de 2006 (5 years 8 months)

MP4/16 - MP4/21
Mechanical / Composite design / R&D
Driver control, suspension, roll hoop, wing, bodywork
Design Engineer
Reynard Motorsport
octubre de 1997 — septiembre de 2000 (3 years )

2KQ Le Mans car
Panoz Q9 hybrid Le Mans car
Ford Mondeo BTCC
Strathcarron road car

Mechanical / composite design / R&D
Engineer
Dome co., ltd.
abril de 1992 — septiembre de 1996 (4 years 6 months)

F1 prototype
F3000
Honda Accord JTCC
Electric vehicle (2x)
Concept cars for motor show

Mechanical / composite design / R&D
FEM in composite
CAM programming
Computer system administration
Manufacturing / assembly

[segedunum]

But hey ..who said the W02 was going to be crap anyways ? one swede and seg ..

We haven't used the word crap, but in the face of the opposition I think we've cast doubt on how likely it is that the W02 will be any better. 2011 is a continuation of the regulations set down in 2009 and Mercedes have to catch up with just how far they fell back in 2010 with a few new curveballs thrown in. They don't have a history that inspires confidence on that score. The ludicruous additions to the car this year in an effort to find something are evidence enough.

Quite what signs there are two be positive about, apart from the "Ross Brawn says..." show, I don't know but then we've been down this road before.

[747heavy]

Excuse my basic understanding 747

no worries JET

F= m*a ( Force = mass*acceleration)

If we assume we have 2g (~20m/s^2) in this 150km/h corner
(or choose any g value you like)
that means

Front Axle = 200kg * ~20m/s^2 = ~4000N
Rear Axle = 450kg * ~20m/s^2 = ~9000N

Both tires have the same vertical force (4905N) but the front tires will only need to support a force of ~4000N in lateral direction, but the rear need to support ~9000N.
O.K. in F1 the front and rear tires are not the same size, but in any case the rear tires will have a much harder life then the front tires.

If weight distribution is not such a big issue, why they go and define it?
Why did in 2009 teams choose not to use KERS, and others dropping it mid season?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

For 2011 this is no continuation of 2009 simply because DDD are outlawed.
The new tyres are a far bigger factor.
And what is true to Mercedes playing catchup rings true to Ferrari amd Mclaren as well right?
For Red Bull to have the same superiority in 2011 they will need the same amount of clever ideas they had in 2010. Because otherwise all those clever engineers sitting at Mercedes Mclaren and Ferrari wouldnt have been doing their homework on the RB6.

It was a total sum of its parts in that it had all the innovations for 2010 bar the F-duct and roll hoop(mercedes).

The three other protaganists will have noted how they think the RB6 works and will incorporate its innovation on their own cars. Perhaps not perfectly, but certainly better than 2010 with th testing and homologation restraints.
The same way RedBull did with the DDD.

We may not have clones, but im pretty sure all will have EBD's(along with ignition retardation), flexing front wings(within the law) and some other interpretations of Red Bulls packaging.

Mercedes have taken steps ensuring that 2011 is a better year. Restructuring, with new names in the team is about as clear a change as any F1 team will admit. So, given they have the raw materials and the Benz V8 and KERS along with a longer development time than their 3 main rivals, do we honestly expect them to go ahead and screw tyres up again under the auspices of a former Michelin expert? I for one dont think so.

Do we expect them to get the weight distribution wrong? Again with the rules for 2011, I doubt that.

So where can Mercedes screw up? Aero? Possibly.
But seen as though toward the last 3 races they had the highest speed in a straight line seems to me they got the aero working towards the end.
And with knowledge gained on how the RB6 works, I wouldnt see them messing this up too badly.

But then Im specualting and Mercedes have the potential to be duking it with Torro Rosso's as much as Red Bulls. This is why the team have taken on a Joker/Dark horse enigmatic tag.

I hope for the best, but I dont think there is anything intrinsically wrong at Mercedes GP that hasnt already been addressed by Brawn.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Good point 747,

And as ever great illustration to help my understanding. Thanks

[Blackout]

Hum, I did'nt knew that only Ferrari, Mclaren RedBull (and Mercedes ?) have the right and the capacity in F1 to make a good car...

[segedunum]

The tyres aren't really as big a change as some people are hoping. The Pirellis are a control tyre subject to the same requirements and restrictions as the Bridgestones, so it was no surprise to hear a lot of drivers saying the tyres were a lot like the Bridgestones. There might be a little more front-end grip at various points and from past history Pirelli have usually created tyres that fair better over qualifying than a race, which is really down to materials, but no driver is ever going to be able to ask for tyres that allow him to brake longer and harder into the apex of a corner.

As for 2011, yes, it is a continuation of the regulations started in 2009 as 2010 was. The double diffuser was supposed to be illegal then, remember? All that's happened is this 'loophole' has been quietly closed with specific wording. It's then a case of clawing the downforce back. Red Bull will probably just branch the single diffuser they were fast with in 2009 and continue their development there. They also have a two year headstart on everyone else with a pull-rod suspension. The biggest problem is that no one really understands how the Red Bull works or how it produces so much downforce. RB are in a great position, apart from the engine and the KERS system. We'll also see what other things Red Bull can apply their flexing bodywork to. Like Montezemelo I see the rear wing next year as a potentially large loophole for something, but if you're simply having to catch up you have less time to explore loopholes.

McLaren and Ferrari? Yep they have some catchup work to do but not as much as Mercedes. Merc were even miles away from McLaren and Ferrari so we need to see whether they can get close to those two, nevermind winning races.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Hum, I did'nt knew that only Ferrari, Mclaren RedBull (and Mercedes ?) have the right and the capacity in F1 to make a good car...

Where you getting this from blackout? This is the Mercedes GP thread and I was refering to the 3 most competitive teams of the last year.
Im sure you would be much happier if I mentioned Renault or Lotus right?

The purpose of your post serves nothing to the thread.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How could I forget that the DDD was illegal! I mean it was supposed to be outlawed right? I guess Williams Toyota and Brawn were just in the FIA's back pocket and they allowed them to race with it for the "spectacle".
Silly me.

"As we have maintained throughout, our team studied the wording of the new 2009 regulations in precise detail to ensure we interpreted them correctly.

We also made full use of the consultation procedure with the FIA which was a helpful process to ensure our interpretation of the technical regulations was correct.

Therefore we had every confidence that the design of our car would be confirmed as legal, firstly by race stewards in Australia and Malaysia and subsequently by the Court of Appeal."

Toyota 2009

Pirelli have already come out and said they will try and improve the spectacle where possible. Tyres lasting 50 laps was one of the Pirelli's priorites for what NOT to happen in 2011. So the control tyre we have all despised will be a thing of the past should certain people including Pirelli head honcho's be believed.

Rosbergs comments
"At the moment, we have done the small things that you can do at the track but there are the bigger things that you need to take care of with the car development. That's going to be one of the areas that are very important for success for next year."

Added to that, the German says they also degrade faster than the Bridgestones, which may not be a bad thing.

"If that's what they want and it's the same for everybody, then okay," he said. "Tyres like that always give more exciting racing as well. So it's not necessarily a bad thing."

[segedunum]

I believe xpensive went through this in more detail earlier. Do keep up otherwise there will be even less point to this thread.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Im up to speed mate,

The DDD is legal, there was no agenda. A manufacturer one indie and one hanging by a thread all seem to have had it magaically passed. 3 teams, with one having had it on the drawing board too(renault).
It was a loophole, much as the flexing wing is this year.
Perhaps if you had the forethought to actually see that Mercedes/Brawn had the DDD in 2009 but not the flexi wing in 2010 and Red Bull vice versa, you would see that perhaps Red Bull doesnt have this fabled "2 year head start".

The difference lies in suspension. And who did Mercedes recently employ....

With the pull rod they have a head start, but it is actually not as advanced as the pushrod according to engineering mechanics. And with their suspension geometery clearly visible along with other bits and bobs, its not exactly a paradigm shift when you have studied it for 2 years now is it? To move to pull rod with the right people in the right conditions will give you the spin off of tighter packaging.

With most/everyone running kers next year, it may be more than just a logical choice.

[xpensive]

Of course it was an agenda, hidden at that. This loophole, if you you consider calling a hole a slot a loophole that is, was thought up by a couple of Super Aguri engineers, which after the team went belly-up brought it with them to Honda and Toyota.

Williams probably got wind of it thru their technical interchange programme with Toyota.

Anyway, RB was in the best of positions as head of FOTA's technical arm, while simultaniously being tight with MrM, who in turn was at war with the FOTA big-dogs, why even I can figure out the rest without wearing a tin-foil hat.

Or do you think MrE's old spannerman had agreed to let the concept pass if presented by Ron Dennis or Flavio Briatore?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yes X

Roll over that conspiracy theory if you like. Fact remains it was deemed legal by the FIA. And Im pretty sure Toyota were at war with the FIA at the time with FOTA(leading protests I do believe).

So that shoots down your argument, or was it just that Toyota were a convenient "sideshow" recipient of the DDD thereby given your theory impetus?
Because if you start to make things up to fit a conspiracy ...well lets just say its a slippery slope

[andrew]

But hey ..who said the W02 was going to be crap anyways ? one swede and seg ..

We haven't used the word crap, but in the face of the opposition I think we've cast doubt on how likely it is that the W02 will be any better. 2011 is a continuation of the regulations set down in 2009 and Mercedes have to catch up with just how far they fell back in 2010 with a few new curveballs thrown in. They don't have a history that inspires confidence on that score. The ludicruous additions to the car this year in an effort to find something are evidence enough.

Quite what signs there are two be positive about, apart from the "Ross Brawn says..." show, I don't know but then we've been down this road before.

So the improved performance of the cars towards the end of the year was what? Darn sight more than a claim by Ross Brawn.

I can't help but feel that you hate Merc. Did someone in a Merc run over your cat ands cause you to have an axe to grind. For the love of God be objective but the mindless hate is just pathetic.

[xpensive]

...
Fact remains it was deemed legal by the FIA.
...

Deemed legal by the FIA is the point, MrM did so already in January, without waiting to hear Whiting's opinion about it.

@ andrew;
Hate is a strong word, I dislike RB for being without shame, while I might despise NH for being a gullable journo.

But hate anyone of them, I don't think so.