Base your F1 car design around 1 specific circuit?

[Mystery Steve]

It's one thing to make a statement like "We're going to design a car to win at Circuit X." It is something else entirely to actually deliver on it. Within packaging and the regulations, there is not a significant enough difference between a custom tailored chassis design and one that is designed for all circuits to make up the kind of time that separates the front runners from the back markers. Besides, just about all of the significant performance influencing components (wings, springs, dampers, etc) are designed to be interchangeable for a reason.

Which goes to show that circuits resemble each other more than they differ from each other, doesn't it?

Exactly. A corner is a corner and a straight is a straight. Different circuits just connect them differently.

[raymondu999]

HRT are missing out Jerez and doing a Monza test. Or as it's more politically correctly known, filming day. Are they perhaps trying something like this thread?

[Belatti]

I would design the car arround 1 specific circuit: A Tilke circuit...

[Ciro Pabón]

+1

Invest on brakes!

... and ways to give you huge down force at 120 kph... which is the design speed, I think

(except at the veeeery long straight in front of the honchos's stands, where the funny building that supposedly represents the culture of the place is located: you know, the one that looks like a Las Vegas casino but without the innate elegance of Las Vegas's casinos...).

It's one thing to make a statement like "We're going to design a car to win at Circuit X." It is something else entirely to actually deliver on it. Within packaging and the regulations, there is not a significant enough difference between a custom tailored chassis design and one that is designed for all circuits to make up the kind of time that separates the front runners from the back markers. Besides, just about all of the significant performance influencing components (wings, springs, dampers, etc) are designed to be interchangeable for a reason.

Which goes to show that circuits resemble each other more than they differ from each other, doesn't it?

Exactly. A corner is a corner and a straight is a straight. Different circuits just connect them differently.

I respectfully disagree with this notion. I won't use adjectives for this idea, but I can think of several. I've shown several times (too many!) that there are huge differences among circuits, at least in overtaking. If you don't believe me, just search the forum for "overtaking" and "Ciro" (or register at the Clip The Apex forum).

[Mystery Steve]

I won't dispute that there are differences in terms of overtaking among the circuits, but in terms of characteristics (banking, turn radius, etc), many of the corners on the F1 calendar share similar traits or they could at least be divided categorically into subgroups. A properly designed car should be adept enough to adequately handle a broad width of the spectrum.

Now, let's do a quick mind exercise... We'll say you have a generic "baseline" Formula 1 car, but all of the adjustable components have been removed: the wings, springs, dampers, even the suspension and steering arms have been removed. These are all components that can be easily updated or modified for a given track, if desired. What you're left with is what remains constant on the cars throughout the season. Now, let's say you need to redesign or update this baseline car to exclusively compete at Monaco. What would you update? Or if you had to run Monza, what would you change? What, if anything, would change depending on the circuit it is designed to run?

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, it's possible, but to paraphrase your signature "winning is the art of building cars for races we don't know how will develop, to get results we can barely preview and then, after winning, saying we were expecting it all the time".

BTW, nice signature. Anyway...

For example, dear Moda, let's check the list of teams that have had just one victory during the year.

Let's start witht the 50's and check decade by decade (if I have the time and the wish).

1950: Kurtis Kraft Offenhauser ► Indy 500  ► Probably a car built for that circuit
1951: Idem                     ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1952: Kuzma Offenhauser        ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1953: Kurtis Kraft Offenhauser ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1953: Maserati                 ► Monza     ► Idem
1954: Kurtis Kraft Offenhauser ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1955: Ferrari                  ► Monaco    ► Idem
1955: Kurtis Kraft Offenhauser ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1956: Watson Offenhauser       ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1957: Epperly Offenhauser      ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1958: Epperly Offenhauser      ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1959: Watson Offenhauser       ► Indy 500  ► Idem
1959: BRM                      ► Zandvoort ► This is the exception that confirms the rule!

So, with the exception of BRM, during the 50's ALL the teams that won just one race during the year, did it at tracks for "specialists"

Yeah, I know, there were Indy back then, but, hey, all that I wrote is true. So, during the 50's the answer to "Base your car design around 1 specific circuit?" is a resounding YES.

I might continue tomorrow (or if someone wants to do the same for the 60's, I'll continue with the 70's).

[Mystery Steve]

I would expect that kind of result in the past given the greater disparity among the cars, and I'll give you the Indy 500 since that is a very fundamentally different race than a typical Grand Prix. That also was a race, at the time, that had people purpose-building entrants solely for that event.

Although, my argument is based more on modern cars where the general architecture was consistent across the grid. I would be interested to see what the data looks like for the past couple decades, but I'll let the suspense build by continuing with the 60's:

1960: Watson-Offenhauser ► Indy 500          ► 8 entries: Positions 1,2,7,15, and 4 Retired
1960: Ferrari            ► Monza             ► 2 additional podiums that year
1962: Porsche            ► Rouen-Les-Essarts ► 1 additional podium that year
1963: Ferrari            ► Nurburgring       ► 2 additional podiums that year
1965: Honda              ► Mexico City       ► Only 2 other points races (6th twice)
1966: BRM                ► Monaco            ► 2 additional podiums that year
1966: Lotus BRM          ► Watkins Glen      ► Only 2 other points races (5th twice)
1967: Cooper/Maserati    ► Kyalami           ► 8 other points races (4th 4 times, 5th thrice, 6th once)
1967: Eagle-Weslake      ► Spa-Francorchamps ► 1 additional podium that year
1967: Honda              ► Monza             ► 1 additional podium that year
1968: Ferrari            ► Rouen-Les-Essarts ► 3 additional podiums that year
1969: McLaren-Ford       ► Mexico            ► 4 additional podiums that year

I have also included the number of additional podiums the team had that year in addition to their win. As you said, we're dealing with "races we don't know how will develop," so it's important to show if a team was close to capturing victory in other races, even if they only made it onto the top step of the podium once. There are a couple occurrences where a team did manage a victory despite a dismal season, though.

[JaymzVsTheWorld]

Ah I was looking for a thread like this because...

I read that McLaren might be using different positioning of exhausts for different tracks. Seems a bit unfair on other teams who can't afford to change the layout all the time? Is this fair?

[Jersey Tom]

...is it "fair" that some teams have 400 million dollars to spend in a season, and others only have a fraction of that? Not exactly new...

[JaymzVsTheWorld]

Yeah alright Tom thanks for that pointless reply.

What I'm saying is that it seems like an overly expensive set up change and that exhaust lacation should maybe be frozen.

[Jersey Tom]

I thought it was a pretty good reply, actually.

Teams will already run completely different aero packages (presumably steering, etc as well) at various tracks, different shocks, you name it. I don't see that various exhaust configurations is that big of a deal - I'd imagine the teams have to build a number of header sets for the cars as is. Some teams may feel it's just not worth their time.

And even if you were to freeze the location of the exhaust outlet, that time and money that had been spent on that development will just go somewhere else for the same effect.

Hope that helps, Jaymz

[JaymzVsTheWorld]

I thought it was a pretty good reply, actually.

Teams will already run completely different aero packages (presumably steering, etc as well) at various tracks, different shocks, you name it. I don't see that various exhaust configurations is that big of a deal - I'd imagine the teams have to build a number of header sets for the cars as is. Some teams may feel it's just not worth their time.

And even if you were to freeze the location of the exhaust outlet, that time and money that had been spent on that development will just go somewhere else for the same effect.

Hope that helps, Jaymz

No it doesn't and there's no need to be condescending.

It's a completely different challenge for a smaller budget team to change exhaust layout at this level to suit whatever circuit, than it is to change shocks or aero. Most teams will change exhaust layout as part of a big evolution, not as part of a set up change.

Of course as per usual there is a lot of speculation e.g, are Mclaren actually going to do this. Is it more expensive than a traditional small exhaust layout change.

And your last point is way off topic, there's no point in telling me what the fundementals of the sport are.

[Giblet]

You need to relax JaymezVsTheWorld. There was not a condescending tone in that message, it's just how you took it.

For someone with 15 posts to his name you need to relax. Here and in the Mclaren thread. If you know more then all of us, and we are all idiots who don't understand F1 aero, then go somewhere that your larger than average brain can actually be put to use.

In case you didn't notice, THAT was condescending.

Try talking to people, not DOWN to them to illicit the reactions you seem to expect from people.

[raymondu999]

What I believe JT means (apologies if I'm wrong JT, is that money has always been part of the game. For example, it's also not fair that Red Bull can afford Adrian Newey, but HRT can't.

[Paul]

That depends on the implementation. If you change exhaust location mid-season, like that happened with many teams last season- then yes, it is expensive. But if you design the car with multiple variations in mind, then that is just the case of bringing different spares to each location (if you know which one you are going to use, of course.)

Anyway, aren't these radical solutions exactly why many want the budget cap? If a team has restricted budget, they are more likely to search for 'brave' solutions that cost half a second or more, than to perfect what they already have.