Simple overtaking

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Jon
Jon
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Joined: 27 Aug 2008, 15:22

Re: Simple overtaking

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Tumbarello wrote:Why can't people just become content with the FACT that motor racing in general, and F1 in particular, is, and always has been very processional.
Big words there: FACT, always, very...

Let's try this three: 1971 Italian GP.

For those disinclined to Google them: http://f1blog.org/race-features/1971-it ... rand-prix/

AND, for those of you not following the link this is a summary:
In all, eight different drivers led the race and the lead changed no fewer than 24 times in 55 laps. Gethin only took the lead for the first time on lap 52 after passing Mike Hailwood’s Surtees.

(from here:http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2005/03/13/t ... ns-gethin/)

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Simple overtaking

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I wouldn't mind seeing a chicane-less monza too but it's not going to happen these days...

ok fine, 90% of races are and always have been processional in F1!

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Simple overtaking

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Jersey Tom wrote:
Tumbarello wrote:Why can't people just become content with the FACT that motor racing in general, and F1 in particular, is, and always has been very processional. It's just the nature of the sport. Look at the races in the past and see how many overtakes there are when there's no mechanical problems involved...you won't find all that many in any era.
People can hate on NASCAR all they want, but the truth is... it is FAR from processional. Anyone's race, every week.
I'd love to see F1 cars on one of those American oval tracks...

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Simple overtaking

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I think I might set up the FW-31 for Talladega this weekend and see how it can do against the Dallara, for science.

Also a short track.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Simple overtaking

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Actually, Tumbarello, I think this very forum discovered that no, it not always has been like this, with so few overtakings per race.

The numbers, actual figures, taken patiently by other fans, with a more or less constant methodology, are in other threads, similar to this one. If you doubt it, just search for "overtakings" in the forum.

There has been a marked decrease, over 50% if I remember well, from 1983 or so (when first data is available) to 1998 or 2000. We're talking of 25 years of numbers.

Since then, that is, since 2000 or so, the number of overtakings is fairly constant, year by year, no matter what the FIA tries.

I think this is kind of mysterious and counterintuitive.

What exactly happened in 2000? Take also in account that it wasn't an abrupt thing, but a tendency going down that extended for many years, handfuls of them, that somehow stabilized around that year.

Also take in account that if the tendency shown from 1983 to 1998 had continued, the number of overtakings in the year 2002 or so would have been exactly zero (and, of course, to please those that find happiness in pointing the weaknesses of statistic analysis, would have been negative in 2003 ;)).

Of course, some fans will also point out that probably the number of overtakings these days is negative. After all, most overtakings nowadays are not of cars passing each other, but of cars being left behind when changing tyres or when breaking some delicate and very complicated gadget.

That was kind of a joke.

It's not a thing I like nor a thing I understand. There have been many theories, but many have been disproved and none proved, that I know.

So, unless we understand the origin of the problem, I think the forum sees with skepticism any solution, no matter how smart, because, how do you find a solution to a problem when you don't know which the problem is?

BTW, I think that things like overtakings in delimited areas, boost buttons, talking black cars (specially talking black cars!) and overtakings of the kind of because-the-driver-has-to-push-with-his-nose-a-lever-to-control-the-rolling-center-of-the-main-energy-wind-turbine-while-tooting-the-horn, fall in the category of negative overtakings...

That, actually, was a joke.

The cruel fact is that no induced overtaking will be a true passing manouver for a true fan. Never. Ever.

We've seen them overtakings, we don't forget them. We can talk about them for hours. We still remember the shivers we felt tingling down the spine the first time we saw them. Some of us actually have overtaken a car with the heart in the throat in a circuit, competing.

The sad truth is that you cannot command a true overtaking to appear from nowhere. They are made in the heaven of racing by the angels of speed and sprinkled over Earth by mysterious forces and combinations nobody understand and depend on wind, weather, luck and manhood. They come from the heart.

When you see a true overtaking, you know it has been earned. The driver behind has tricked, mulled and pampered the one in front. He has shown not only being faster but smarter and, some times, few but appreciated, braver. If he simply overtook the car because it happened to be slower, that is not an overtaking.

So, imagine castrating all of that to create a ZONE where you actually expect overtakings to happen. It is like saying to a girlfriend "I command you to be sexy!". It kills precisely what tries to evoke.

You can paint the mule in brown but it ain't no horse, as they (I imagine!) used to say in NASCAR.

NASCAR, a place where true overtakings are... brutal
, no matter what Americans and other deranged minds, me included, try to say to you. :D You know how it is: you spit your last slush of tobacco out of the window on curve 4, push the pedal to the metal and close your eyes all the way to the end. When the smoke clears, they count the cars that crossed the line. Those few, I guarantee to you, all have made overtakings. The overtakens are scrambled around the track, in ruins and flames.

It can be seen as fun and a tad cruel, kind of the feeling you have in your first bull fight, specially towards the mechanical engineers working there, I guess, but they don't seem to be inclined otherwise.
Ciro

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Simple overtaking

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All very well but how many of those overtakes in the past were as a result of the car being overtaken running into mechanical problems? I would guess that a very sizable proportion.

Cars are now very reliable plus the aero thing makes following cars on certain tracks difficult, all having a negative impact on overtaking trends. But. People talk as if F1 in the 'good old days' was cars whizzing past each other at every second corner and down every straight.

Now I've been watching races since the Australian GP of 86 and I don't remember all that many races in which there were loads of pure overtaking moves. The vast majority of races have been processional, in my experience.

The problem with overtaking is that you need a fast car behind a slow car and qualifying sorts out the order of fastest to slowest fairly efficiently.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Simple overtaking

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ok ,I modify my statement:
the level of professionalism in the world has changed dramatically in the past decades since people went to the moon.
I can NOT rmember any race in the 80s when not a considerable percentage of cars dnf because of technical issues in every race.
Montecarlo saw races regularly with less than 6! cars reaching the finish line...
Nowadays it is the exception that a top team does not finish due to technical items,right? Call it what you want ,this is a rise in professionalism in my book.
Back then you just could not squeeze your material for 300km ,no ways you would reach the finish line.Many times races ended with surprises ...just recently RedBull is the one team getting back to this sort of being prone to mechanical incidents like it was in those days.

In fact back in 1977 the german gp had zero overtaking manoevres and it was a dull GP. you cannot say hockenheim had no long straights or no slipstreaming opportunities can you? it was also not a season with one car dominant as well...so the whole discussion is far removed from reality in my historical view.
Hockenheim as it was ...provided ample entertaining races in the lower classes ..i rmemeber on the same day the spec type races :Procar with f1 drivers running identical BMW M1 was a nutcracker as well as the Renault R5 race...now what ?