F1 engine torque

[mcdenife]

"Frenchbloke" wrote:

todays no ones use imperial mesures to design engines, every ingeneer use SI mesure and all use Newtons and not Lbs!

Hope if you are englishman that you know who was Isaac?

and that you'll leave Lbs to calculations of potatoes!
bye

If this is your 1st post, then note, this a forum for the discussion, exchange of ideas etc re everything F1 (including alot of technical and other related stuff). We all come from different places and do things or think differently. We also frequently disagree with each other on many issues and some know more about certain things than others. But even in our disagrements we still learn (at least I do) from each other. What I did not think this forum is (was) is a place to post insults, silly comments about what you know or do not know, what you are or are not, or make derogatory comments about certain peoples.

If you really are an engineer then you will know that though most engineers are taught in SI units or both (possible exception being the U.S), not every engineer designs in SI units as you claim. It all depends on specific industries or your markets.
If you disagree with:

So 1hp = 746kW ? not 746 Watts?

Then please just say so or show so. Its simple and perhaps we will learn something. The old saying that "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" is rubbish and not true. What is true however is that "you cant teach an old foolish dog new tricks". Why? Because only a foolish dog thinks it knows all there is to know about anything and is therefore incapable of learning anything new.

[mep]

ginsu wrote A longer stroke can only be accomplished by increasing the moment arm (i.e. crank throw). The same pressure on the same piston area on a longer moment arm increases the torque produced by the engine.

If you want a longer store and let the bore the same you will get a higer
capacity of the engine and as we all know is the capacity limited in formula1. You must make the piston area smaler. trigonometry

[mep]

ginsu wrote:
Remember, the engine outputs torque, not work.

Neither nor it outputs work/time. [Nm/s] or [W].

There is a formel: P = M * w P: (Leistung, wattage I think in english)
M: torque
w: angular velocity

P=(F*d)/2 * (2*pi *n)

F: force
d: diameter
n: turns/second

So what I'm wondering is, is there a difference If your engine brings a certain amount of wattage by a high torque or by a lot of turns per second
Because after the formel it doesn't make a difference If you have the right gearbox. (Don't take friction into account)

[Reca]

I know all about different systems of measurement. I was trying to use a simple explanation from a purely physical point of view without taking into account a thermodynamic cycle analysis or anything like that because I felt it would be a waste of my time. [...]

Dear Devil’s son, don’t take a correction as an attempt to make you look like an idiot.
I’m not here to act high and mighty, I’m here as everybody else to learn what I don’t know and to say the things I happen to know, it’s mutually beneficial, I try to be as much correct as I can in my explanations, often I make mistakes, I try my best to avoid them, just like I hope others do, but it happens and I hope others will correct me when it does.

You say you know about the displacement difference, BMEP etc, fine, but probably there are people around here who don’t, and due to the different units you used it wasn’t immediate to notice the displacement difference, the message I got from your post is “short stroke = less torque” and that’s wrong. Since that’s a message often repeated, I thought it was worth to explain it a bit more.

I didn’t want to say that all the US people are ignorant, I’ve friends there and I know that’s not the case, but it’s a fact that that myth about “short stroke = less torque” lives mainly in US and I looked for possible explanations fitting with my experiences. An American friend came here last year and, even if he would have liked to try an European diesel, he couldn’t drive my car because of the manual gearbox; he told me that round there few people use it or even know how to use it and I’ve no reason to think he was lying, we did talk about different driving styles here and there and many other things, I base my comments also on that.
If you found my comments offensive I apologize, it wasn’t meant to be against US people just an attempt to find an explanation, I’m well aware of myths existing here in Italy and idiotic things I read in some magazines, you can bet I’m annoyed about these things too.

It's my first post, but as ingeneer i can't leave someone saying this!

So 1hp = 746kW ? not 746 Watts?

So, as the torque in Lbs per foot? isn't it in Newtons per meter? for mechanics basis?

todays no ones use imperial mesures to design engines, every ingeneer use SI mesure and all use Newtons and not Lbs!

Hope if you are englishman that you know who was Isaac?

and that you'll leave Lbs to calculations of potatoes!
bye

First of all welcome.

That kW was a typo, exactly because I always use kW, it’s automatic for me to write kW while thinking about a power and I didn’t catch the mistake. I’m sorry for that, but you’ll see that in the calculation I correctly used 745.7 W.
Anyway thank you for pointing it out so it can be corrected :

1 hp = 745.7 W
1 CV = 1 PS = 735.5 W

BTW, I’m Italian and I love Asimov books

[Frenchblock]

If you really are an engineer then you will know that though most engineers are taught in SI units or both (possible exception being the U.S), not every engineer designs in SI units as you claim. It all depends on specific industries or your markets.

actually working for 15 years for GM and FORD and others on thier engines, and i never ever seen a Lbs per feet into design works, but you crack me up!
http://www.answers.com/topic/metricatio ... ted-states
regards,

PS: i met also pseudo specialists pretending the versus, and they still makes us laughs with ours americans friends!

[mcdenife]

Engineering is not just about auto engine design (or even just design for that matter). So a questions for you:
Have u worked in design (engineering) outside of the auto market (or industry if u wish)?

Saying that you have never seen imperial units used the enginering design, says alot about you than it does about engineering. Even so 15years is not nearly enough to know everything there is to know about engineering, design, engineering design, the engineering and/or design market place/industry in every country. Have a quick look at jet engine makers (at least the major ones) and you will find imperial units very much alive in engineering.

[jgredline]

Hmm
A very interesting discussion.
I will way in with my two cents a little later.

[Figlio_del_Diavolo]

Dear Devil’s son, don’t take a correction as an attempt to make you look like an idiot.
I’m not here to act high and mighty, I’m here as everybody else to learn what I don’t know and to say the things I happen to know, it’s mutually beneficial, I try to be as much correct as I can in my explanations, often I make mistakes, I try my best to avoid them, just like I hope others do, but it happens and I hope others will correct me when it does. [...]

No problem, I just don't like it when people assume things because I am American, which I could tell that you did. I admitted I could have explained the point I was trying to make better. Many people in the US can't drive a manual, that is true, but that doesn't mean we all can't. You should expect more from fellow car/driving enthusiasts! I've driven many different manual cars, from a Mustang GT to a 124 Spyder to a Golf TDI. In fact, speaking of Euro diesels, I wish we had more. My friend and I drove from the New York City area where I am from to the Colorado Springs area for the Pikes Peak Hill Climb in his TDI Golf and it was a great car for such a trip. We averaged over 52 mpg for the whole trip there and back including going up and down Pikes Peak three or four times. And to think it is one of the worst of the range of diesels VW offer in Europe. Anyhow, enough of my rambling. Hopefully we will have more lively discussions in the future.

[Downforce]

I don't know how this can confuse you. It's simple trigonometry. A longer stroke can only be accomplished by increasing the moment arm (i.e. crank throw). The same pressure on the same piston area on a longer moment arm increases the torque produced by the engine.

Exactly like that.It's that simple.

[Frenchblock]

Engineering is not just about auto engine design (or even just design for that matter). So a questions for you:
Have u worked in design (engineering) outside of the auto market (or industry if u wish)?

Saying that you have never seen imperial units used the enginering design, says alot about you than it does about engineering. Even so 15years is not nearly enough to know everything there is to know about engineering, design, engineering design, the engineering and/or design market place/industry in every country. Have a quick look at jet engine makers (at least the major ones) and you will find imperial units very much alive in engineering.

ok here is my last post!

i have no time to waste!

Jet engines makers works in SI never in imperial , being french for 200 years we don't use this mesure no more!

in english speaking world peoples still keep on their day life with this medieval mesure units brough by the greeks in roman empire, later by the french in britain, good, but ingenering swiched all for SI and "Vulgarise" on comercial in what peoples are used imperial units!
All research in aerospace are in SI , and later are translated to countries usual mesure, peoples have an idea of it like that!

Why, firstly because the whole world don't care about lbs and medieval units, most of the works on new research are led internationally by lots of foreigns ingeneers and teams, so they speak the same language, SI!

for litle specifics US or UK compagnies, they can still use old units, but it's not stepping ahead, as english language on internet, SI is ruling mesurement unity system, je crois qu'on s'est bien compris!

this , i can't be more sharp "because my nefew does works for GE jet engines in the US" NASA etc..., do you remember that in the 80's the mismatch imperial and SI crashed a space shuttle?

regards

[ginsu]

Jet engines makers works in SI never in imperial , being french for 200 years we don't use this mesure no more!

Well, I guess all those thrust ratings in lbs. are just for fun. Personally, I'm not going to argue SI vs Imperial. We all know which one is easier to use. In America people only really use is horsepower, lbs. and feet. There's very little use of 'slugs' or any of the other esoteric Imperial units.

However, change has occurred, with most products in the United States now required by law to be labeled with both metric and non-metric units, and a number of companies and government agencies switching to metric standards. Additionally, the metric system is taught in schools, in the context of the sciences.

Don't the brits still use BTU's instead of Joules?

[mep]

May we please stay to the topic.
Units is not the topic here, start anoter one, but here stay to this topic.

Quote:
I don't know how this can confuse you. It's simple trigonometry. A longer stroke can only be accomplished by increasing the moment arm (i.e. crank throw). The same pressure on the same piston area on a longer moment arm increases the torque produced by the engine.


Downforce wrote:

Exactly like that.It's that simple.

It's not.
If you want a longer store and let the bore the same you will get a higer
capacity of the engine and as we all know is the capacity limited in formula1. You must make the piston area smaler.

[pgj]

This is my first post in this forum. I have been reading this forum for quite a while and I am a bit daunted at posting a question. I came accross a term called Effective Torque Band, ETB, when reading about the Renault F1 engine/transmission/luanch system. It did not go into too much detail. However, the main thrust of the report seemed to say that Renault are so good at getting off the grid because they have a wider ETB which delivers more torque at lower revs. It also improves the acceleration at lower revs and improves cornering speed.

I have found the discussion about stroke lengths very interesting. My question is does anyone have any idea of what the science is of increasing the ETB, in particular how would Renault have gone about developing this?

If there are any errors, please correct them

[kkobayash]

Jet engines makers works in SI never in imperial , being french for 200 years we don't use this mesure no more!

in english speaking world peoples still keep on their day life with this medieval mesure units brough by the greeks in roman empire, later by the french in britain, good, but ingenering swiched all for SI and "Vulgarise" on comercial in what peoples are used imperial units!
All research in aerospace are in SI , and later are translated to countries usual mesure, peoples have an idea of it like that!

Why, firstly because the whole world don't care about lbs and medieval units, most of the works on new research are led internationally by lots of foreigns ingeneers and teams, so they speak the same language, SI!

for litle specifics US or UK compagnies, they can still use old units, but it's not stepping ahead, as english language on internet, SI is ruling mesurement unity system, je crois qu'on s'est bien compris!

this , i can't be more sharp "because my nefew does works for GE jet engines in the US" NASA etc..., do you remember that in the 80's the mismatch imperial and SI crashed a space shuttle?

regards

you may be right that SI units is used internationally but i can guarantee that metric is still used by many aircraft companies, and trust me world does care about this.

currently studying aero eng in Australia, we are traditionally learnt SI units (in school and such), however this year we have been starting to use metric as we have been told it is more common in the aeronautical industry. Take for example Boeing, arguably the worlds biggest airliner manufacturer, they completely use only metric system (may not be same for Airbus as they are french).

also, you can't say 'old' units or that the metric system is not stepping forward...i for one think that its quite handier than the SI is some instances, like in terms of gravity etc.

neways that all i have to say...

sorry bout the OT by the way

[NickT]

Hi pgj,

Nice to see someone bringing the topic back online. And a very interesting question to. Not sure what the answer is, as I have been away from it for a while, but it used to be a combination of bore to stroke ratio, variable cam timing and variable inlet trumpet length, traction control and all topped of with some pretty nifty ECU programming.

I think the new regs define the bore size or atleast its maximum size, ban variable valve timing and trumpet length, ECUs become standardised soon without driver aids soon to so I am intersted to know what they are doing/planning now?

There is something else to, the transmission, this could be programmed giving an extra dimension to launch control - now banned I believe. They used to preprogram the amount of cluch slip so the engine could be kept at peak torque as it launches the car off the line, but I think this has been banned to, although I am pretty sure the drivers can do a little of this themselves.

Hope this helps