Are the ARW rules fair?

[bot6]

I agree with Giblet on that one: it's unfair, overly complicated, and it takes so much away from the thrill and skill of overtaking.

Now we won't have "what a brilliant overtaking maneuver by ..." but "... uses his ARW and passes. Big deal."

[komninosm]

...

How do the videos you post prove anything? Did they use the mechanism we are discussing in this thread? Weird logic you got there buddy...

[Caito]

Please don't start with the thing that pilots are busy driving.. They can automate the pressing of some button.


Whats left for 747 pilots? Watch for traffic, attend the ATC and confirm, do what the atc says, press lots of switches and even fly the plane. Lets not even start when they have an emergency and they have to do a full checklist by hard, while still driving a plane.



F1 drivers do more than regular car drivers, but it is nowhere near the limit of what a well trained man can do. I believe there's no safety issue on that side.


I believe that we simply have to give the system a chance. Then we'll see and speak.

[kalinka]

It's more like you trying to do that in Red Bull Air Race than in a 747 plane. In 747 you don't take a turn every 2 seconds with 4-8G. In F1 you can experience 4G left/right in less than a second too. I'm not afraid they don't know which button to push, I'm afraid they hit the button accidentaly because of high G and vibration. In a 747 plane you don't have all the switches at finger-reach. We can remember drivers hitting wrong buttons almost every race. Almost every race they penalise a driver for pitlane speeding too, and it's almost every time becase they forgot to hit the limiter. Entering/exiting pitlane is indeed stressful but nothing compared too close racing with another car.Then what to espect in those much demanding situations? It's just a matter of time when someone hits the wrong button in wrong place. And it's not KERS, or rev limiter or something that could just probalby slow you down, but you can suddenly loose a big amount of DF at the rear.

[Ciro Pabón]

...

How do the videos you post prove anything? Did they use the mechanism we are discussing in this thread? Weird logic you got there buddy...

Well, maybe I should have explained better.

I was trying to prove that what some people call unfair that is (I quote):

- "to be in the lead and loose it on the last lap due to a driver having a capability you dont have" and

- "having two drivers fighting for the win on the last lap will make the trailing driver win it with a passing manouver on the last lap, last straight"

was not only relatively common in times of yore, but a fact of life when full downforce wasn't yet the norm and everybody and his dog slipstreamed.

Take in account that I've been watching F1 races for a looong time. In fact, so long that when downforce appeared I'd been following F1 for over 10 years. Since then, overtaking and last lap wins took a dive, but I was already well out of school and into college, so I still miss those days.

I'm also used to kart racing, and I am a follower of Nascar since Richard Petty so... for me that's the norm: the guy behind has a slight advantage. The only exceptions to that norm are modern (relatively!) European open wheelers.

However, if you feel I'm wrong about that, please, tell me why, by all means.

This is also the reason (I think) for blocking maneuvers being authorized (within reason) in most motorsport categories with less downforce.

I was also trying to prove that this condition is not only fair but fun for drivers and fans.

However, if you think that fairness is to give a strong advantage to the guy in front, as happened until 2008, be my guest. I'm here to learn, not to become illogic defending a particular position.

So, why is it fair to make hard to overtake? I'm all ears (sincerely, without a hint of sarcasm).

[raymondu999]

I've been thinking about this whole DRS scenario, and I've just come to realize something. With the way the rules are, having a 1s gap and all, this would basically mean that they're trying to emulate a different set of values for drag. The DRS zone starts around about just the outer edge of the dirty air/slipstream flow, no? Basically, the DRS, now it seems to me, is just a way of exaggerating the slipstream to even greater heights.

[Jon]

...

How do the videos you post prove anything? Did they use the mechanism we are discussing in this thread? Weird logic you got there buddy...

Well, maybe I should have explained better.

I was trying to prove that what some people call unfair that is (I quote):

- "to be in the lead and loose it on the last lap due to a driver having a capability you dont have" and

- "having two drivers fighting for the win on the last lap will make the trailing driver win it with a passing manouver on the last lap, last straight"

was not only relatively common in times of yore, but a fact of life when full downforce wasn't yet the norm and everybody and his dog slipstreamed.

Take in account that I've been watching F1 races for a looong time. In fact, so long that when downforce appeared I'd been following F1 for over 10 years. Since then, overtaking and last lap wins took a dive, but I was already well out of school and into college, so I still miss those days.

I'm also used to kart racing, and I am a follower of Nascar since Richard Petty so... for me that's the norm: the guy behind has a slight advantage. The only exceptions to that norm are modern (relatively!) European open wheelers.

However, if you feel I'm wrong about that, please, tell me why, by all means.

This is also the reason (I think) for blocking maneuvers being authorized (within reason) in most motorsport categories with less downforce.

I was also trying to prove that this condition is not only fair but fun for drivers and fans.

However, if you think that fairness is to give a strong advantage to the guy in front, as happened until 2008, be my guest. I'm here to learn, not to become illogic defending a particular position.

So, why is it fair to make hard to overtake? I'm all ears (sincerely, without a hint of sarcasm).

Well said Ciro!

Also, these guys against DRS are conveniently forgetting that the guy in front HAS an unfair advantage: NON dirty air. Let's remember that the dirty air caused by the leader will affect every driver coming behind. The advantage that this represents is so huge that unless the following car is 1.5 seconds faster than the leader, then no matter how skilled you are, you won't have a chance at overtaking. Again, that is one point five seconds! That's massive!!!!

As I see it, the DRS is going to be tweaked continually until a fine balance can be found, negating the dirty air advantage, while not making it a foregone conclusion that the follower will pass.

Not convinced? See here: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php

I quote the most important part:
(Here, how the system works is explained, the bold text is mine)

The big news for the coming season is the moveable rear wing rule. If we have correctly understood, the system works in this way : There is an actuator to move the flap of the rear wing, this actuator is driven by each F1 driver and it is under the authority of race control. How is race control regulating this procedure?
There is an actuator in each wing which is under the control of the driver at all times, however, it can only be used when the on-board electronics (FIA ECU) notify the driver that he is authorised to use it.

Proximity to the car in front will be detected before the straight on which the wing may be activated, if the car behind is less than one second behind (as judged by the installed timing loops in the track) the driver will be told that his system is "armed", however, he may only use it when he reaches the designated point on the following straight. This point is likely to be 600 metres before the braking point for the following corner, this may however be adjusted according data gathered during testing and practice.

(And this seems specifically designed to quelch your doubts guys:)

How will you stop drivers tail-ending the leader to then 'jump' on the final straight?
If a car is able to get within one second of the leader entering the last corner of the last lap it is unlikely that he would be able to pass him before the finish line. If a car can get within one second of any other car, the driver will have the opportunity open to him, irrespective of their relative race positions.

It should be remembered though that the distance over which the Drag Reduction System (DRS) may be used is going to be tuned with the intention of assisting the following driver, not guaranteeing him an overtaking manoeuvre.

Doubts??

[RH1300S]

I think its unfair a faster driver can on certain tracks do nothing about a slower car in front of him.

Mull it for a little longer and you see why this rule is, at the very least, a step in the right direction for F1.

Agreed - it seems sensible to me. Faster cars shouldn't be bottled up behind MUCH slower ones, it can make a 'race' a farce. Also, the notion that people will lose races by being slipstreamed up to the finish line is very likely to be a false fear. The finish line is rarely at the end of a straight, so the benefit of the reduced drag isn't likely to be a last lap advantage for the guy in 2nd place.

In a normal racing lap, even if the drop in drag allows a driver to get alongside or even past the guy infront he WILL be going faster so will need to jump on the brakes earlier. Evenly matched cars will still be fighting it out in the braking zone.

At the end of the day, if we see drivers 'walking past' the guy in front I'm sure they will tweak the rule, but I'm just not so sure it will happen.

[Giblet]

If there are two drivers in the same car, and one out qualifies and out starts his teammate, how is it fair that he gets to cruise by on a straight?

That's what I don't get. The guy in front has usually earned the right to be there, usually. You also have to drive mistake free to keep that guy who is not 1.5 seconds quicker behind you, so it's not like you can just cruise home if the guy behind you is crawling up your exhaust.

I'm withholding judgement until after the first couple of races, but on paper I don't like it

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, then the driver overtaken can overtake in the next lap. As you say, let's wait and see.

[raymondu999]

Basically the key should be to be able to tune it so the slipstream/dragfree advantage would equal the dirty air disadvantage.

[Pingguest]

One could argue that adjustable aerodynamics will help overtaking and should also be a part of Formula 1's seeking for efficiency. But the current implementation is artificial, unfair and unnecessarily complicated. Assuming that adjustable aerodynamics are the way to go, a full implementation should had been opted. Drivers should had been allowed to manually change every aerodynamic part any time during the event.

It could be argued that aerodynamics which can adjusted manually, causes an overload to the drivers and diminishes the need for having a good overall race set-up, as drivers can countlessly adjust settings per lap. Therefore an alternative would had been to allow flexible bodyworks. This would had resolved the on-going controversy about bodywork parts being illegally flexible and improve aerodynamic efficiency. It would also meet the demand for more overtaking, as a slipstreaming driver wouldn't lose much downforce because the bodywork would flex less.

[Ciro Pabón]

Basically the key should be to be able to tune it so the slipstream/dragfree advantage would equal the dirty air disadvantage.

I'd say it's not enough.

As they say, if I catch you, you're slower.

[ESPImperium]

As ive said before, i belive the DRS should be limited to 10 ten-second activations per race. In effect you could use 3 seconds in one straight, another 2 in another straight and the rest in various places to gain lap time.

I also belive that KERS should be used in a simmilar fashion. id limit the cars to having 10 second bursts, but if a driver dosnt use it for say 3 consecutive laps, he can get a 20 second burst on the third lap.

I think limits on KERS and the DRS should be envoked, meaning that drivers had to use them smartly. Id also make the drivers unable to use them both on the first 2 laps of the race, mening that all cars had a more equal footing at the start. As for teams that cannot afford KERS, i think they should be allowed 10 bursts of "unrestricted revs" per race.

* DRS to 10 Ten-Second bursts a race with full and open usage in practice and quali.
* KERS to 20 Ten-Second bursts per race, with "power plays" would make KERS more interesting.
* And with all drivers being unable to use both for the first 2 laps, or 300 seconds of a race (what ever comes first) would mean the first laps would make drivers fight like dogs to my eye.
* With the smaller teams being allowed to use their unrestricted revs for 10 Ten-Second bursts per race, would make racing interesting.

I want to see a driver with newer tires and only 1 DRS & KERS activation defending a driver with older tires with say 6 DRS and KERS activations left for the last 5 laps of a GP, meanwhile there is a pcak of drivers only 6-8 seconds behind them with a real mix of "performance differenciators" on their cars to make racing interesting.

Make racing more random in this format with the performance of the Pirellis, it would make watching F1 a real and propper headache to watch.

F1 needs a bump up the arse to make more people turn on to watch it.

[Sean H]

Well, then the driver overtaken can overtake in the next lap. As you say, let's wait and see.

Unless he passes on the last straight of the last lap... which I think will happen at least once this year.