Red Bull KERS strategy

[Dragonfly]

Need to look into the rules, but IIRC cars come out of the pits with KERS discharged. And it is charged during the installation lap I think.

2009 rules

5.2.4 Any KERS may only be capable of increasing the stored
energy whilst the car is moving on the track.
Release of power from any such system must remain under the
complete control of the driver at all times the car is on the track.

[bosanac1]

Guys the way the teams use KERS it does not affect the top speed at all. You just reach the speed faster (improved acceleration).

not so.

considering they are not going to be hitting revlimiter in top gear as they did with KERS in 2009

[Just_a_fan]

The DRS issue is a bit of a red herring too. You have to be within 1 sec of the car in front to get DRS. Is anyone likely to be within 1 sec of Vettel after the second lap? Doubt it if he gets a clean start...

Using KERS to get close to the Red Bull only helps if it gets you close over the DRS sensor. And then you need some left to help get out of the following corner quickly too.

Red Bull's apparent strategy of going for a fast car without KERS may not be that bad an idea. It might be touch and go at some circuits but if it works on average over the whole season...

[bhall]

It's hard to argue with the success of RBR's design thus far. But, because words are free, I'll do just that.

With the weight distribution of the cars fixed this year by the regulations, I don't understand the logic of running a lesser KERS to save weight. It would seem to me that such a setup leaves very little room for improvement.

Put another way, as the other teams with proper KERS get their setups more and more optimized as the season wears on, the gains to be had from full-on KERS will easily overcome a KERS unit whose only benefit comes at the start of a race.

[mep]

Guys the way the teams use KERS it does not affect the top speed at all. You just reach the speed faster (improved acceleration).

Not so. Assuming the car doesn't reach maximum speed on the longest straight, if the entry to the straight is faster, then the maximum speed reached will also be higher.

Normally the car has a balance of engine power and drag at end of longest straight otherwise you could increase downforce. KERS is most effective when you use it when you are not traction limited anymore and start to be power limited. As long as you don't use KERS close to top speed which would be bad your top speed is not increased very much. It can be little bit higher because you reach it earlier but from then one you accelerate with very little power left. Might be something like 0,5km/h and just for very short time. Not something worth mentioning.

[f1gang]

they not need kers..but they have flexi wing that why they said like that...lol

[raymondu999]

Thinking of it I think I finally understand what they mean. Is it that KERS only recovers energy from rear braking, and hence destabilises the braking balance. This stays, even if your KERS is not on. So Red Bull maybe have decided they don't want this braking instability, then they do away with the charging mechanism, instead topping up the battery in the pits, so they can use it in the start. Then in traditional Newey style, they sacrifice the straightline performance (KERS) to change it with cornering performance.

But this doesn't explain why they wouldn't just charge up KERS for the single Q3 lap though

not so.

considering they are not going to be hitting revlimiter in top gear as they did with KERS in 2009

Yes, but the teams would most probably use it still as an acceleration supplement rather than a top speed regainer. The advantage stays with them from the start of the straight to the end.

Not so. Assuming the car doesn't reach maximum speed on the longest straight, if the entry to the straight is faster, then the maximum speed reached will also be higher.

There is no way in h*ll that any team worth anything would gear the car to not reach a terminal velocity on the longest straight. That means their gearing would be unnecessarily long and would compromise them on acceleration. That is, of course, save for cross/head/tailwinds

[Just_a_fan]

I don't understand the logic of running a lesser KERS to save weight.

It's not about weight, it's about volume.

[Just_a_fan]

So Red Bull maybe have decided they don't want this braking instability, then they do away with the charging mechanism, instead topping up the battery in the pits, so they can use it in the start.

They can't charge it in the pits. They have to leave the pits uncharged and do the charging on the way to the grid. Someone has already posted the relevant reg on this.

[myurr]

Guys the way the teams use KERS it does not affect the top speed at all. You just reach the speed faster (improved acceleration).

Not so. Assuming the car doesn't reach maximum speed on the longest straight, if the entry to the straight is faster, then the maximum speed reached will also be higher.

Normally the car has a balance of engine power and drag at end of longest straight otherwise you could increase downforce. KERS is most effective when you use it when you are not traction limited anymore and start to be power limited. As long as you don't use KERS close to top speed which would be bad your top speed is not increased very much. It can be little bit higher because you reach it earlier but from then one you accelerate with very little power left. Might be something like 0,5km/h and just for very short time. Not something worth mentioning.

I don't believe it's that simple this year where you need to set up the car for the DRS, and it's the only thing that seems to fit with Red Bull's strategy. Start line only KERS, well why not use it for Q3 as well? Unless all your gear ratio's are set for a lower top speed but with better acceleration to that speed then I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't just use it in Q3 as well.

Even if it's so that they can use the DRS earlier in the corner they could still activate KERS for a small boost in Q3 once they weren't traction limited with DRS employed. The gain may be smaller it would still be apparent.

[myurr]

I don't understand the logic of running a lesser KERS to save weight.

It's not about weight, it's about volume.

But if it's just a start line KERS that charges on track then where's the weight or volume saving? They still need to be able to charge it within a single (parade) lap, so the batteries wouldn't be any smaller, and they would have all the other components to make it work. Also they could still use it in Q3.

This one is really puzzling...

[King Six]

It would have to do with the braking/recovery system rather than the storage, the batteries would probably be the same as normal. It's also a valid point that they would still use it in Q3 even if it was just a start-KERS. They'd charge it for a flying lap in the garage, surely.

It's probably not as simple as it's being made out to be.

[simon174]

They definitly have a full KERS, not a start-only-KERS

Watch this video from P2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mikg7vy6 ... re=related

Look at the left hand side display on the dashboard, you can see normaly the speed in kph. At some stages this changes to a number counting up from 0 to 100. This happens always when you would think kers would be activated.
So this display shows him how much kers he has used and we can see when he is using kers.

Aswell in a interview from the preseason testing Vettel said that it´s hard to look at your dashboard display to use the right amount of kers while concentrating on driving fast.

I think rbr has decided not to use kers in quali to optimise breakbias and breaking feel. This extra confidence for the driver and unaffected rearend breaking will give them more laptime as those 400 kj kers power could give

[Dmitry]

They still need to be able to charge it within a single (parade) lap, so the batteries wouldn't be any smaller

Battery can be much smaller and lighter if it charged only once.

[myurr]

They still need to be able to charge it within a single (parade) lap, so the batteries wouldn't be any smaller

Battery can be much smaller and lighter if it charged only once.

According to Adam Coopers blog the rules are still the same as they were in 2009 so KERS can be precharged in the pits. This would let Red Bull do away with the brake energy recovery components, but doesn't explain why they didn't use it in Q3.

What if their KERS was specifically designed to help them at lower speeds at the start, making sure they always get a good getaway? Would it be possible to design a system that was optimised specifically for the start itself, ie. is effective from 60mph (if that's still the minimum deployment speed) up to say 150mph and then disconnects itself permanently from the drivetrain so that it doesn't have any further influence or disadvantage?

I'm presuming that with a permanently attached solution with the motor connected to the engine that it would degrade engine power slightly when the electric motor wasn't powered?