Red Bull KERS strategy

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Formula None
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Red Bull KERS strategy

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Yet you can still design a winning car that doesn't need it. I'm just anxiously waiting for real KERS rules to be introduced.
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 01 Apr 2011, 03:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited thread since actual KERS usage by RBR is not clear

internetf1fan
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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You do realize that in 2009 McLaren with KERS was one of the fastest if not THE fastest car on the grid. This time around they are starting off at a much better position to build their season from. Australia isn't exactly a KERS track, once we go to the tracks like Sepang, the KERS + DRS comination will really kick in, especially in qualifying.

Formula None
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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It just amuses me how it's so optional. What's the point? Spending millions of dollars to develop something you can only use for a few seconds while at the same time limiting testing and engine rev's in the name of cost cutting. I'll say it again, I wouldn't be bothered by KERS if the teams could actually use their investment to full effect.

connollyg
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Well, by looking at the graphics on the TV it was KERS that was keeping Massa in front of Button at the beginning of the race and ultimately forced Button to make a desparate move that allowed Alonso an easy pass on Button, not something that would have happened in a straight fight as the Mclaren was much faster than the Ferrari.

(Some clever tactics from Ferrari for a change)

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forty-two
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KERS Lite?

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Heard numerous discussions during the Melbourne GP weekend about Red Bull and their supposed "KERS Lite".

The story is (apparently) that Red Bull might have a "KERS" design which allows them to charge the batteries in the garage, and deploy the energy contained in them during the first lap or two, but not including any mechanism to recharge the batteries, thereby avoiding some of the downsides of KERS including:
- The need to carry regeneration hardware (including some control electronics)
- The change in brake balance which comes as a result of KERS regeration

But of course it has drawbacks too, including the fact that it will only be available for the first lap or two at most, and that after that, an amount of "dead weight" will still need to be carried for the remainder of the race.

I wonder whether any truth can be found in this speculation, or indeed what other esteemed forum members have to say about it?
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 30 Mar 2011, 23:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged from own thread titled "KERS lite?"
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747heavy
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Horner@Autosport wrote: There was speculation after Vettel took pole position that the team was planning to use an innovative 'start-only' KERS, but Horner told the BBC that the team had been concerned with reliability on its conventional system and merely opted not to run it.
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forty-two
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Sorry to be late to the party here, but:

Wouldn't such a system be better described as an electric start boost since it doesn't recover any energy?

Surely the regs can't be loose enough to allow such a thing?

But TBH, wouldn't the penalty of carrying a heavy electric motor and power source for it, even if only for one lap, be too painful to recover? I suppose that depends on how much ahead of the rest of the pack you are?
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747heavy
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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well my 2c on the topic and some technical possibilities, you can find here

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9738&start=30

I don´t think, it would be worth the effort, but you never know.
Still think, it´s better to built a competetive "full KERS".
IMHO- the regs will allow a "start only KERS", at least atm.
IMHO - The interesting question would be, how much does the change in brake balance (charging vs. noncharging KERS) affect driver confidence and thereby lap time.
I don´t think, that such a KERS would be "much" ligther, but you could probably safe a bit in terms of cooling and accu size.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

Caito
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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As I understood the rules nothing prevents the team of putting a resistor.


Why a resistor? When KERS is fully charged you can dispose the energy through a power resistor. This way there would be no brake balance dependency on KERS charge. Sure you would have to cool that resistor.
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n_anirudh
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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A bit off topic, why allow drivers with KERS to gain an advantage at the starts, rather than driver skills to change gears correctly and hold/make up positions.

Why not use KERS only from lap 2??

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Fil
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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n_anirudh, you can only use KERS from 100kmh anyway, so the initial art of the perfect start remains. EDIT: This is wrong! KERS at any time!!

747heavy wrote:The interesting question would be, how much does the change in brake balance (charging vs. noncharging KERS) affect driver confidence and thereby lap time.
My thoughts exactly.

Is the KERS effect on brake balance, a performance hindrance? Or merely an adjustment?
Last edited by Fil on 31 Mar 2011, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
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connollyg
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Fil wrote:n_anirudh, you can only use KERS from 100kmh anyway, so the initial art of the perfect start remains.
I thought we had already established earlier in this thread that this limit is a myth

747heavy wrote:The interesting question would be, how much does the change in brake balance (charging vs. noncharging KERS) affect driver confidence and thereby lap time.
In the BBC commentary they talked about a 5% change in brake balance.

Sayshina
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Formula None wrote:It just amuses me how it's so optional. What's the point? Spending millions of dollars to develop something you can only use for a few seconds while at the same time limiting testing and engine rev's in the name of cost cutting. I'll say it again, I wouldn't be bothered by KERS if the teams could actually use their investment to full effect.
I highely doubt anyone would have bothered using any kers at all if they'd known it was going to be effectively banned for '10. In fact, I'm fairly certain McClaren and Ferrari made a conscious decision to hurt themselves a bit in '09 in order to try and gain an experience advantage for future years. Remember, it was widely assumed kers would be much more powerful by now.

Kers was clearly a disadvantage during all of '09. You can make a very good claim that it ruined both teams seasons and also make a reasonable knockon claim that ignoring it was a major part of both RB's and Braun's success.

I keep hearing journalists claim Kers is worth 3/10's a lap, but I keep seeing teams looking ambivelant about it, and sometimes claiming it's a wash. In any case, all other things being equal (as in equal laptimes) being faster on the straight is more important than being faster in the corner.

Calling Horner a liar is going way too far. Very few team owners in any sport have any technical knowledge of how their sport works. F1 is a bit unique in that several owners came up through the ranks decades ago when that was still possible. But Horner is clearly not one of them. He's a soft drink guy, and it would be entirely expected for him to say something clueless. That doesn't mean he couldn't be lying, only that there's a much simpler explanation.

Some of you are far too convinced of Red Bulls cleverness. You seem to start from the premise that whatever RB did was best and try to work out why it's the best. They've had exactly 1 season of dominance, and that was much more the result of all the other teams falling down at some point during the season than anything they did. You keep trying to read between the lines of whatever Newey says like some biblical scholars. All he really said was he's not a big fan of kers.

A startline only kers violates one of the rules of competition. Never put something on your car that adds complexity unless it provides a clear advantage. Never mind the weight or volume issues, having any form of kers on your car is going to eventually cost you a race. It will break, and it can break in a way that will screw you up, therefore it will cost you a race. What if the motor/gen refused to decouple from the engine? It probably seizes up in a lap or 2 and what are your chances then? Why on earth would you risk that for a couple of car lengths at the start? Even if it gave you a place, which is very hard to guarantee, I'd say it wasn't worth it.

You never saw variable valve timing on a F1 engine, even though the tech was available for years before it was banned. It's clearly a theoretical advantage, but in an area of engine performance that does almost nothing for laptime. So it's added complexity for no real gain and that makes it a no go.

Horner mentioned that Newey compromised RB's kers in order to conform to the aero shape he wanted. This runs counter to what most of the other teams seem to have done, as they mention having to make other compromises in order to fit kers. As I mentioned above, Horner is hardly a technical person and whatever he says should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does seem to fit with what you might expect from an aero guy who doesn't really like kers anyway. If this is true then you would expect RB's kers to be at least slightly less effective than others, and you would expect RB to gain the most advantage from removing it.

The simplest explanation is that RB's kers had problems and that kers in general still isn't much of an advantage. Since RB has less experience with kers than most major teams, this isn't surprising. It's also not at all surprising that a guy who is faced with a troublesome part he doesn't believe in anyway would choose to remove it.

It's far, far too early to be acting like RB is light years ahead of the rest of the field. I'm not at all claiming that won't prove to be the case, but given the major problems faced by both Ferrari and McClaren I'd say the sky isn't falling quite yet. It's also worth noting that when a RB has problems it doesn't look like anything special either.

Connaly and Fil, it's not a myth at all. There's no good reason to use any sort of kers whatsoever until your car becomes traction limited. It's tough to judge exactly when that happens, but one F1 engineer said a couple of years ago that midway through second gear was the breakpoint. Using kers before that point is just saving a tiny bit of fuel.

kebab
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Sayshina wrote:
Formula None wrote: Calling Horner a liar is going way too far. Very few team owners in any sport have any technical knowledge of how their sport works. F1 is a bit unique in that several owners came up through the ranks decades ago when that was still possible. But Horner is clearly not one of them. He's a soft drink guy, and it would be entirely expected for him to say something clueless. That doesn't mean he couldn't be lying, only that there's a much simpler explanation.
:o

Is he really a softdrink guy? I thought he once was a race driver then was a GP2 Team boss before moving to RBR...or am I talking about different Christian Horner?

connollyg
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Sayshina wrote: Horner mentioned that Newey compromised RB's kers in order to conform to the aero shape he wanted. This runs counter to what most of the other teams seem to have done, as they mention having to make other compromises in order to fit kers. As I mentioned above, Horner is hardly a technical person and whatever he says should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does seem to fit with what you might expect from an aero guy who doesn't really like kers anyway. If this is true then you would expect RB's kers to be at least slightly less effective than others, and you would expect RB to gain the most advantage from removing it.
I understood that the minimum weight limit was increased (by the FIA) to account for KERS and that the weight distribution was limited (by the Teams?) so there isnt any big advantage in removing except for the drive train complexity. The advantage from Newey's point of view is in the packaging and getting his aero to work better.
Sayshina wrote:Connaly and Fil, it's not a myth at all. There's no good reason to use any sort of kers whatsoever until your car becomes traction limited. It's tough to judge exactly when that happens, but one F1 engineer said a couple of years ago that midway through second gear was the breakpoint. Using kers before that point is just saving a tiny bit of fuel.
Earlier in this thread it was established that it is a myth that there is a speed limit below which KERS is not allowed (the operative word is allowed), the fact that "there is no point"/"its detrimental" to deploy KERS at slow speed is a different issue