Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[ringo]

It was pretty obvious Massa immediately slowed down to let Alonso past once he was up on his tail; no discussion in there. I think Massa didn't really quite adapt to the new aero regulations that came into place in '09. He was beaatig Kimi yes, but then Kimi probably had lost all his motivation so he wasn't a good benchmark but he still won at spa (too bad we couldn't see what Massa could've done there). And in 2008 maybe the Ferrari F2008 was a lot better than people made it out to be, and Raikkonen sucked big time rather than Massa doing really good (with all due respect to Felipe).

All that said, I don't see why he should leave Ferrari. He's become a loyal number 2 to Alonso, and will regain some of his speed during the season. Most probably he won't be as bad as he was in oz. Ferrari (and Alonso) can't find a better 2nd driver than him.

kimi didn't lose motivation. He was simply beaten by an on form Massa. We simply have to take it how we see it.
Motivation is something that cannot be confirmed. Massa was just better in 2008 and 2009.

[Echo]

It was pretty obvious Massa immediately slowed down to let Alonso past once he was up on his tail; no discussion in there. I think Massa didn't really quite adapt to the new aero regulations that came into place in '09. He was beaatig Kimi yes, but then Kimi probably had lost all his motivation so he wasn't a good benchmark but he still won at spa (too bad we couldn't see what Massa could've done there). And in 2008 maybe the Ferrari F2008 was a lot better than people made it out to be, and Raikkonen sucked big time rather than Massa doing really good (with all due respect to Felipe).

All that said, I don't see why he should leave Ferrari. He's become a loyal number 2 to Alonso, and will regain some of his speed during the season. Most probably he won't be as bad as he was in oz. Ferrari (and Alonso) can't find a better 2nd driver than him.

kimi didn't lose motivation. He was simply beaten by an on form Massa. We simply have to take it how we see it.
Motivation is something that cannot be confirmed. Massa was just better in 2008 and 2009.

But how many more times didn't Kimi set the fastest laps (2008, 2009) compared to Massa?

[Gerhard Berger]

It was fairly obvious that it was a 'team' thing, there was plenty of time for the team to order it, the commentary team had been discussing it for 30 seconds before it happened so there was plenty of time for the team to order it.

Another person who comes with the extremely convincing argument that "it was obvious".

30 seconds? There's not even that amount of time between Button passing Massa and Alonso pasing Massa.

[hollowBallistix]

Well, you can say what you like about the ice cream eater, and his results versus Massa are a matter of some debate, but the bottom line is that he is still the only Ferrari World Champion thus far, post-Schumacher.

Well, except for a certain Finn... Y'know, Kimi something... What's his name again?

Wouldn't that be Kimi "The Ice Cream Eater" Räikkönen as Seg says

[Gerhard Berger]

The problem with this theory is that they pitted Alonso the lap after (and before Massa) thus giving Button another opportunity to give the place back to Massa.

Agree with you: that proves agian that smart strategy moves where not on the menu.

Except Button would still have ended up behind Alonso. This year, the driver who pits first has the advantage.

The smarter thing would have been to pit Massa, in order to guarantee Button's penalty.

[Pup]

Nah, Button drives for McLaren - his penalty was already guaranteed.

[Maidel]

It was fairly obvious that it was a 'team' thing, there was plenty of time for the team to order it, the commentary team had been discussing it for 30 seconds before it happened so there was plenty of time for the team to order it.

Another person who comes with the extremely convincing argument that "it was obvious".

30 seconds? There's not even that amount of time between Button passing Massa and Alonso pasing Massa.

There was enough time for the commentators to make extensive comment on the issue. Frankly if that's not enough time to issue an order to the drivers then the team is doing something wrong.

I'm sorry that 'it was obvious' is not a convincing enough argument for you. For me it falls in the same category as 'the sky is blue' it was that obvious that it didn't require proof. However if you fall into the category that I need to prove the sky is blue before continuing then I see very little point.

[Pup]

I'd bet that Ferrari just has a permanent team order in place now: if Alonso is behind Massa, Massa lets him by. They're free to do so, so why not? It's not like Ferrari needs to deny anymore that they have their eggs in Alonso's basket.

And Massa's motivation doesn't really seem to be their concern, especially after what Pat Fry said.

[Maidel]

And Massa's motivation doesn't really seem to be their concern, especially after what Pat Fry said.

I simply dont understand that. There was no benifit to what he said, it wasnt motivational or even helpful. So I must concur that you are right, Ferrari simply see him as a mobile chicane for other drivers and a garanteed pass for Alonso.

[Gerhard Berger]

There was enough time for the commentators to make extensive comment on the issue. Frankly if that's not enough time to issue an order to the drivers then the team is doing something wrong.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they did give the team order, just that they possibly could have (though Domenicalli doesn't give orders directly himself, he would have had to pass the order onto Smedley, and then Smedley would have had to pass the order to Massa, which would have made tim quite tight).

I'm sorry that 'it was obvious' is not a convincing enough argument for you. For me it falls in the same category as 'the sky is blue' it was that obvious that it didn't require proof. However if you fall into the category that I need to prove the sky is blue before continuing then I see very little point.

Yeh nice strawman argument mate. Unfortunately, this incident has no relation whatsover to a the factual statement that "the sky is blue". Provide the evidence, otherwise stop presenting your opinion as a fact.

[Maidel]

Yeh nice strawman argument mate. Unfortunately, this incident has no relation whatsover to a the factual statement that "the sky is blue". Provide the evidence, otherwise stop presenting your opinion as a fact.

Im sorry, who's presenting opinion as fact?

All I have said is that I think thats what happened and that, in my opinion, there was plenty of time for a team order to be given.

Its only your opinion that there wasnt team orders....


Sorry, I think the pot is calling the kettle.

[donskar]

I like Massa; seems to be a decent human being. And he is (or was?) quite fast -- he did not lose the WDC by a single point by being uncompetitive.

But there are a number of factors counting against him:
a very serious injury (who know what impact it's had?)
a faster (there, I've said it) teammate
a certain, call it psychological, fragility

For his good and the good of the team, he should go elsewhere. Months ago I suggested I'd love to see Kubica alongside Alonso -- probably not realistic.

[Ciro Pabón]

But how many more times didn't Kimi set the fastest laps (2008, 2009) compared to Massa?

I don't know about fastest laps (where Kimi is good), but in the end, this is the tally of positions:

2008 (I discount two races, Melbourne and Valencia, one with Massa retiring and one with Räikkönen retiring because of mechanical problems):

Kimi arrives ahead of Massa: 5
Felipinho arrives ahead of Räikkönen: 11

Year goes to Felipe.

2009 (I discount 5 races where, again, one of them had mechanical problems: Melbourne, Shanghai, Barcelona, Nürburgring and Hungaroring)

Kimi arrives ahead of Massa: 2
Felipinho arrives ahead of Räikkönen: 3

Year goes to Felipe.

As for Massa vs Alonso, in 2010 this is the tally:

Felipe ahead at the end of the race: 4
Fernando ahead at the end of the race: 4

I only have data until June 2010, sorry.

[Maidel]

For the record I have just revieved the incident.

there were 17 seconds from Massa being passed to Alonso passing Massa.

From watching it over and over again is very very clear that Massa defends the first corner against alonso and has track position, but then simply lets him past.

Why that happens - No idea. I could be:

1) Team orders were yelled at him quickly
2) Team standing order that says 'If alonso is behind you let him past'
3) Massa is not even 1/10th of the driver he was 2 years ago and he simply 'gave up'

[ringo]

But how many more times didn't Kimi set the fastest laps (2008, 2009) compared to Massa?

I don't know about fastest laps (where Kimi is good), but in the end, this is the tally of positions:

2008 (I discount two races, Melbourne and Valencia, one with Massa retiring and one with Räikkönen retiring because of mechanical problems):

Kimi arrives ahead of Massa: 5
Felipinho arrives ahead of Räikkönen: 11

Year goes to Felipe.

2009 (I discount 5 races where, again, one of them had mechanical problems: Melbourne, Shanghai, Barcelona, Nürburgring and Hungaroring)

Kimi arrives ahead of Massa: 2
Felipinho arrives ahead of Räikkönen: 3

Year goes to Felipe.

As for Massa vs Alonso, in 2010 this is the tally:

Felipe ahead at the end of the race: 4
Fernando ahead at the end of the race: 4

I only have data until June 2010, sorry.

Exactly. The guy was championship material, what we are seeing now is not characteristic of the old Massa. Kimi can't be that bad that Alonso would destroy the guy who was whooping him for 2 years.