Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[andartop]

Much as I like Felipe, he's certainly had his chance with Ferrari in 2008 and blew it. It's easy to single out the team's screw up at Singapore that year, and it was a major one, as well as reliability-induced DNFs, but Felipe also had some poor performances through no fault of the team, such as in the British, Canadian, Italian and Japanese GPs.

Ferrari managed 8 pole positions and 8 race wins that year altogether, to McLaren's 8 poles and 6 wins, so the car was definitely up to the challenge.

Of course, any driver will have his good days and his bad days, but the last couple of years Felipe seems to be having more of the later.

One of his major issues is tire management, as discussed already.

Another, is damage limitation. When things don't work he just fades away..

When Ferrari so blatantly "robbed" him of a possible race win to favour Alonso last year, it was already as clear as the fact that the sky is blue that out of the two drivers it was Alonso who had a better chance of challenging for the title - if any. Fair it might not have been for Felipe. Reasonable it certainly was for Ferrari.

The thing is, what should a race driver do when they feel their team is un-supportive and there is no point trying hard enough as there is no chance for a win - not to mention a Championship?

a. Leave the team and save face.
b. Do one's best to outperform the other guy and ridicule the team for their preference - ie by consistently outqualifying the other guy?
c. Do a "Rubens" - ie keep moaning about it for years and years while staying put and pocketing the money? (plus, writing a book about it!)
d. Nothing.

I would have loved to see Felipe go for option a or b, but I'm afraid it looks like he's going for option d..

[Gerhard Berger]

Yeh nice strawman argument mate. Unfortunately, this incident has no relation whatsover to a the factual statement that "the sky is blue". Provide the evidence, otherwise stop presenting your opinion as a fact.

Im sorry, who's presenting opinion as fact?

All I have said is that I think thats what happened and that, in my opinion, there was plenty of time for a team order to be given.

Its only your opinion that there wasnt team orders....


Sorry, I think the pot is calling the kettle.

You are mistaken.

You're comparing your opinion to the statement "the sky is blue" (a factual statement). I never said my opinion was a fact, you implied yours was.

And btw, my opinion isn't that there wasn't team orders (look in the thread, i never said that), just that there is no evidence that there is team orders.

[Gerhard Berger]

For the record I have just revieved the incident.

there were 17 seconds from Massa being passed to Alonso passing Massa.

From watching it over and over again is very very clear that Massa defends the first corner against alonso and has track position, but then simply lets him past.

Why that happens - No idea. I could be:

1) Team orders were yelled at him quickly
2) Team standing order that says 'If alonso is behind you let him past'
3) Massa is not even 1/10th of the driver he was 2 years ago and he simply 'gave up'

Don't agree with the "simply lets him past part". He held the inside line for turn 13 (in order to defend against Alonso), however as a result his exit to turn 13 was compromised which allowed Alonso to go up the inside of him and pass him into turn 14.

[Maidel]

You are mistaken.

You're comparing your opinion to the statement "the sky is blue" (a factual statement). I never said my opinion was a fact, you implied yours was.

And btw, my opinion isn't that there wasn't team orders (look in the thread, i never said that), just that there is no evidence that there is team orders.

Sigh... you missed the point entirely. The sky isnt blue. Its an optical illusion during the day that tricks our eyes into seeing a clear sky as blue. Its black at night. My attempt at irony was evidentally too obscure.

My point was that from my perspective the sky is blue and in the same way, Massa let alonso past.

My second point was, that if I have to justify my point that the sky is blue (eg explaining everything above) its the same as having to justify the fact that it was very clear TO ME that massa let alonso through.

You argue that I provide no facts, you equally provide no 'facts' - its your observations against my (and other peoples) observations. There are no 'facts' on either side.

[Maidel]

Don't agree with the "simply lets him past part". He held the inside line for turn 13 (in order to defend against Alonso), however as a result his exit to turn 13 was compromised which allowed Alonso to go up the inside of him and pass him into turn 14.

Times from BBC iplayer:

Button makes his pass - 1.20.25
Button goes off track - 1.20.28
Alonso pulls up behind massa - 1.20.34
Alonso attempts to pass - 1.20.38
Alonso pulls along side - 1.20.42
Alonso passes - 1.20.44

I will revise one part of my first statement, there was no time to give a specific team order between the pass by button and the pass by alonso.

However it is VERY clear (to me) that massa had pre-race, or, pre-incident instructions to let Alonso past because he made absolutely no attempt to prevent alonso passing him after his half baked defense of the corner at 1.20.38.

In fact, it was so pathetic that if team orders hadnt been 'unbanned' this year, then we would all be clamouring to get ferrari sanctioned.

[ringo]

april fools joke or is this really coming from Pat Fry?

http://www.f1-direct.com/news-f1/show_n ... _news=9584

Following the disaster of the Australian Grand Prix, first round of the 2011 World Formula 1, and thus theater of the impotence of the Scuderia Ferrari with respect to its main rival, Pat Fry speaking on microphone BBC.

So he gives his personal opinion on the causes that led to this dismal failure! According to him the two main causes are the mentality of the team and the level of Felipe Massa.

"The team must change its approach to the design of the car, Formula 1 does could make a lot of miles in testing, we focused more of our program this winter on the reliability putting aside performance, this which is not good compromise, we are no longer in the 2000s, Ferrari must learn to win. " Explains the English engineer, strengthened by its long experience at McLaren.

He also referred the matter is debated Felipe Massa: "Felipe [Massa] is ​​no longer the standard to be Formula 1 driver, it lacks the specifically technical aspect."

The question deserves this place, Massa has his place? In Australia it has resisted for several laps Jenson Button, while McLaren was much faster than him, but Alonso was also, he did not, moreover, insisted he and Alonso missed the next turn.

We also note that he is the author of the best race lap, but always in circumstances that can not afford to be totally sure of its performance, having been the last to go on new tires for the end of race, and therefore with little gasoline, and it is still too early to tell, it plays heavily on this time or not.

Nevertheless, it remains crucial to note that since the departure of Schumacher, Massa and Raikkonen were the directors as to the red team, the 2007 season but was of little success, 2008 marred by reliability problems, 2009, a car completely missed, and with the arrival of Fernando Alonso in 2010 the car was fast, but it is too early to judge the level of 150 ° Italia, so it's a case to follow.

We conclude our statement-investigation so we do not know the performance level of the car, it will be the Malaysian Grand Prix, but it is certain that we should not expect that deadline to find a delicate atmosphere exists within the team from Maranello.

[Gerhard Berger]

Don't agree with the "simply lets him past part". He held the inside line for turn 13 (in order to defend against Alonso), however as a result his exit to turn 13 was compromised which allowed Alonso to go up the inside of him and pass him into turn 14.

Times from BBC iplayer:

Button makes his pass - 1.20.25
Button goes off track - 1.20.28
Alonso pulls up behind massa - 1.20.34
Alonso attempts to pass - 1.20.38
Alonso pulls along side - 1.20.42
Alonso passes - 1.20.44

I will revise one part of my first statement, there was no time to give a specific team order between the pass by button and the pass by alonso.

However it is VERY clear (to me) that massa had pre-race, or, pre-incident instructions to let Alonso past because he made absolutely no attempt to prevent alonso passing him after his half baked defense of the corner at 1.20.38.

In fact, it was so pathetic that if team orders hadnt been 'unbanned' this year, then we would all be clamouring to get ferrari sanctioned.

Like i said, he had a poor exit to turn 13 (after taking such a tight entry). Alonso got up the inside of him and there was nothing he could do (unless you wanted him to do what Schumacher did to Rubens at Hungary).

I guess you'll see what you want to see, but there is no evidence of team orders, and, unlike Hockenheim last year, this wasn't "obvious".

[Gerhard Berger]

You are mistaken.

You're comparing your opinion to the statement "the sky is blue" (a factual statement). I never said my opinion was a fact, you implied yours was.

And btw, my opinion isn't that there wasn't team orders (look in the thread, i never said that), just that there is no evidence that there is team orders.

Sigh... you missed the point entirely. The sky isnt blue. Its an optical illusion during the day that tricks our eyes into seeing a clear sky as blue. Its black at night. My attempt at irony was evidentally too obscure.

My point was that from my perspective the sky is blue and in the same way, Massa let alonso past.

My second point was, that if I have to justify my point that the sky is blue (eg explaining everything above) its the same as having to justify the fact that it was very clear TO ME that massa let alonso through.

You argue that I provide no facts, you equally provide no 'facts' - its your observations against my (and other peoples) observations. There are no 'facts' on either side.

It has the appearance of being blue to all humans, either way, it's still a strawman argument and has little relevance here.

I am not the one the jumping to conclusions, claiming it was (or wasn't team orders) team orders simply because it is "obvious", hence i didn't provide any facts (though nothing i said was false). You on the other hand are jumping to the conclusion that i was team orders despite there being no evidence to support that.

[Maidel]

I will agree with you on one point, it wasn't like last year. Last year went on for lap after lap. However I won't agree with 'seeing what I want to'. I have utterly no preconceived ideas about this, no axe to grind and no reason to want him to move over. But from watching the clip over and over again it's very clear that massa slows, let's alonso catch up, and then meekly rolls over and let's him past.

From everything I've looked at it's so clear, from my perspective, you have to have a preconceived agenda NOT to see that massa let him through.


Please can you actually post what you do think, because you keep saying that you haven't said something, rather than actually saying what you think happened.

[Gerhard Berger]

He didn't slow to let Alonso catch up, he took a very bad line in turn 12 whilst trying to defend from Button. He then was very defensive in turn 13 (he did defend against Alonso), and Alonso got him on turn 14.

As for what i think there's a possibility it could have been team orders, but no evidence for that as of yet. I guess i could see why you would think it would be team orders (smart thing to do), but on the other side of the argument, you can see Alonso pitted before Massa (not smart in this case). I can see both sides of the argument, but for now we cannot jump to conclusions based on things being obvious from ones perspective.

[andartop]

Please, can you two agree that you disagree and get over it? You could PM each other if you wish to take this further. Otherwise you may expect your posts to be removed by the mods or get the thread locked. Which wouldn't be a huge loss to be honest..

[Shrieker]

But from watching the clip over and over again it's very clear that massa slows, let's alonso catch up, and then meekly rolls over and let's him past.

I'll second that. It was crystal clear Massa slowed down and let Alonso past. He was defending against Button ruthlessly lap after lap, yet Alonso managed to overtake in what - 2 or 3 corners ? Whoever thinks Massa did not slow down and let Alonso past should get a grip on reality; sorry, there's no polite way of putting it...

[Gerhard Berger]

But from watching the clip over and over again it's very clear that massa slows, let's alonso catch up, and then meekly rolls over and let's him past.

I'll second that. It was crystal clear Massa slowed down and let Alonso past. He was defending against Button ruthlessly lap after lap, yet Alonso managed to overtake in what - 2 or 3 corners ? Whoever thinks Massa did not slow down and let Alonso past should get a grip on reality; sorry, there's no polite way of putting it...

Yes anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you needs to get a grip on reality...

[Maidel]

Please, can you two agree that you disagree and get over it? You could PM each other if you wish to take this further. Otherwise you may expect your posts to be removed by the mods or get the thread locked. Which wouldn't be a huge loss to be honest..

My understanding was this was a discussion where people were allowed to put forward arguments and counter arguments. Neither of us have been rude or insulting, nor have we flamed or spammed. I really don't understand your point.

[andartop]

You keep repeating the same arguments (or lack of) over the last pages again and again and all over again. We got your point(s) and views on the specific incident. Thank you. Anything different to add to the topic of this thread would be most welcome.