Red Bull KERS strategy

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Richard
Richard
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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Sayshina wrote:Kers was clearly a disadvantage during all of '09. You can make a very good claim that it ruined both teams seasons and also make a reasonable knockon claim that ignoring it was a major part of both RB's and Braun's success.
That's odd. I thought Brawn won because it was one of the few cars with the DDD?

Christian Horner is a team principal, not the owner. You'll find that most the principals are very technical, for example Whitmarsh, Brawn, Domenicali, Head, Williams, Boulier .. etc...

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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In 2009 many teams simply didn't think KERS was worth it given the performance on offer averaged out over a season. If it was extremely important then Brawn and Red Bull would have got it on their car fairly quickly, and Red Bull was going to. The amount of weight you were carrying, the centre of gravity problems and weight distribution all meant that what you got out of it was disproportionate to the effort and expense you were putting in. It meant that a couple of teams, Ferrari and McLaren, won a couple of races where it could be used effectively when they otherwise might have struggled, but they dropped back when it really wasn't a differentiator.

This year the weight distribution isn't a problem because it is standardised and KERS units have got a lot better, but there is still a good thirty odd kilos of weight that create a centre of gravity issue and then there is the packaging and compromises on aerodynamic efficiency to consider. The unit doesn't provide any more power so it's not clear that the advantages do outweight the disadvantes overall. The top teams are putting it on their cars simply because they don't want to lose track position, particularly at the start. It's not there for performance reasons.

Pup
Pup
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I think the center of gravity issue is mostly a red herring. The batteries make up most of the weight, and they can be placed anywhere. I think packaging and cooling are the primary concerns.

Plus, it's not as if the car was designed without consideration for KERS. It just didn't work. Newey packaged it too tight, and it overheated. When they get the chance, they'll fix it - maybe even for Sepang.

connollyg
connollyg
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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segedunum wrote:In 2009 many teams simply didn't think KERS was worth it given the performance on offer averaged out over a season. If it was extremely important then Brawn and Red Bull would have got it on their car fairly quickly, and Red Bull was going to. The amount of weight you were carrying, the centre of gravity problems and weight distribution all meant that what you got out of it was disproportionate to the effort and expense you were putting in. It meant that a couple of teams, Ferrari and McLaren, won a couple of races where it could be used effectively when they otherwise might have struggled, but they dropped back when it really wasn't a differentiator.
Its not as simple as that! in 2009 it was primarily a weight penalty and severely reduced the ability to play with the weight distribution; and if if didnt work, you were lugging 30K's without any benefit, but if it did work, it was a benefit.
Now the minimum weight limit has been raised and the weight distribution is effectively fixed. The KERS downsides have now been overwhelmed by the upsides - it was KERS that kept Massa in front of Button in Australia, DRS notwithstanding!
This year the weight distribution isn't a problem because it is standardised and KERS units have got a lot better, but there is still a good thirty odd kilos of weight that create a centre of gravity issue and then there is the packaging and compromises on aerodynamic efficiency to consider. The unit doesn't provide any more power so it's not clear that the advantages do outweight the disadvantes overall. The top teams are putting it on their cars simply because they don't want to lose track position, particularly at the start. It's not there for performance reasons.
As i said i understand the minimum weight limit has been increased so the KERS weight penalty has been nullified. an extra 80Bhp isnt any extra power? And its definitely there for performance reasons.

Sayshina
Sayshina
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Re: Start-only KERS?

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richard_leeds wrote:
That's odd. I thought Brawn won because it was one of the few cars with the DDD?

Christian Horner is a team principal, not the owner. You'll find that most the principals are very technical, for example Whitmarsh, Brawn, Domenicali, Head, Williams, Boulier .. etc...
You're correct on the Horner principal issue, I had him confused with what's his name. You're not exactly right on the second part of that statement. You can hardly point to Brawn to support that argument, he never intended to have the job. Dennis was a mechanic, Williams has no technical background that I'm aware of, and Head bought in to the team fairly recently in its history. At any rate, I also said F1 is unique in how much engineering talent it does have in management, as most teams are run by nitwits.

But what are Horners qualifications? I can't remember his name ever coming up prior to his current post.

If the performance of the Brawn had been down to the DDD then Williams would have been in 2nd place. The team made a decision 1/2 way through '08 to focus everything on '09, and when they were forced to "restructure" they clearly made the decision to gamble everything they had left on the '09 car.

Kers was a disaster in '09. The teams that ran it clearly did so to gain a future advantage, and Brawn was staring at the very real possibility of not having a future. There was no good reason to throw money and development time at a project that had no immediate utility.

I would say Kers is less of a disadvantage this year then '09, but I would hardly conclude that it's clearly superior. And claiming that Kers is why Massa was able to stay ahead is just silly. If both cars have kers then it's irrelevant, and so far every single race where kers has run the cars with no kers onboard have shown markedly superior handling. We've seen hundreds of faster cars held up indefinitely by slower cars, you can NOT make any intelligent claim that Button would have easily passed Massa had the Ferrari only been without kars.

mx_tifoso
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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Moved recent Williams related posts to the 'Williams GP 2011' thread.

And removed off topic username comments.
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segedunum
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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connollyg wrote:Its not as simple as that!
On the contrary. It's not as simple as what you're painting here.
Now the minimum weight limit has been raised and the weight distribution is effectively fixed.
It hasn't. Centre of gravity and aerodynamic efficiency are as big a set of concerns as they were in 2009. It's about much more than just forward/rear weight distribution.
The KERS downsides have now been overwhelmed by the upsides - it was KERS that kept Massa in front of Button in Australia, DRS notwithstanding!
There is a difference between using KERS to keep track position and how fast the car is in clear air and what KERS gives and takes away with the latter. It's still very debatable as to what gain it gives because it's only truly an advantage at certain tracks, usually where acceleration out of slower corners is important.
As i said i understand the minimum weight limit has been increased so the KERS weight penalty has been nullified.
If you'd read my comment I specifically stated that weight distribution had been standardised. The centre of gravity and aerodynamic efficiency arising from packaging still remain.
an extra 80Bhp isnt any extra power?
It's power that can only be used for six seconds every lap. You don't get 80bhp over the whole lap which makes it a big expense for little gain.
And its definitely there for performance reasons.
It's not. It's there to make sure that track position is at least maintained, especially at the start. Whether it will turn into a clear performance differentiator is another matter.

segedunum
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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Pup wrote:Plus, it's not as if the car was designed without consideration for KERS. It just didn't work. Newey packaged it too tight, and it overheated. When they get the chance, they'll fix it - maybe even for Sepang.
If KERS was a real performance differentiator they would have easily taken the aerodynamic efficiency hit in terms of packaging it. They didn't want to. That tells you all you need to know about it.

xpensive
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I've probably said this about a hundred times by now, few people relize how little 400 kJ really is.

Well, one liter of gasoline is almost 100 times as much.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I think it is not about the power it is able to suply but the way you are charging the unit- using rear braking energy.this will inevitably have a huge and major impact on the brake balance with batteries full or empty and you need a very clever system to give the driver the same feel when slowing down on brakes alone and when recuperating...so the question is in which braking areas you recharge your kers and when to disengage to allow the driver to modulate the brakepedal...tricky stuff...
I think KERS energy is not enough to counter the drawbacks still for teams not having worked with it in 2009.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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Well marcush, I would think it's the entire package, onloading some 30 kg of xtremely xpensive equipment, with one-off batteries btw, which as you said upsets the rear brakes, all in order to recover about a centiliter of gasoline per lap?

Newey is no fool.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Richard
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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x - The fuel saving is irrelevant. Teams use KERS for the 80bhp boost that helps get to the corner 100mm ahead of the other car.

Newey appears to have concluded that tight packaging without KERS gives an advantage over incorporating KERS. Both approaches are valid, and I'm glad to see the variety in approaches in F1. Wouldn't it be dull if everyone did the same thing?

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I'm not talking about any fuel savings Richard, merely trying to give a perspective of what KERS is worth in general terms. Agreed that an 80 Hp burst for 6 seconds, once a lap, could be useful at times, but hardly on an overall basis.
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Sayshina
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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xpensive wrote:Well marcush, I would think it's the entire package, onloading some 30 kg of xtremely xpensive equipment, with one-off batteries btw, which as you said upsets the rear brakes, all in order to recover about a centiliter of gasoline per lap?

Newey is no fool.
Well, first off, all indications are that RB does have a kers system, although aparently one more compromised in favor of the car than possibly any other.

Also, I know I've argued against kers, but I don't think it's quite as simple as that either.

During '09, we had every reason to believe kers was not only here to stay, but would get a major upgrade by '11 or '12. So, nowish. There exists a threshold over which kers becomes so great an advantage it becomes mandatory. Given that only 2 teams seriously worked with the tech, if events had unfolded the way they were expected to, those 2 teams could reasonably have expected to gain a very real advantage over the competition.

McClaren and Ferrari are no fools either. They ran kers in '09 for good reasons, those reasons just didn't work out for them.

marcush.
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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of course the potential gain for the buck invested is not really staggering ...and there are to many drawbacks still.
you cannot talk away the added volume -compared to 30kg of densimet.
so in terms of CoG height it is a small but worthwhile difference.
AND there is the added risk.Compare the potential faailure modes of 30kg of ballast with a fully blown KersSystem...I certainly can feel some guys at RedBull feel dizzy when thinking of the implications especially when you consider them having what i would call a fragile reliability...
As I said already last year...KERS will not be mastered by those who did not campaign a car with KERS before.
To me Ferrari and McLaren have a clear advantage ,Renault and Mercedes should as well but as we see this is all on very shaky ground and you just cannot afford to
develop/debug such a system during the weekend...
Newey clearly realised that it´s just above their punching weight and I think they will take their time to introduce it...Maybe it´s a matter of how quick the Mac is ...
From a race relevant tool standpoint ,I think KERS has a bigger value than on sheer lap time especially when your racedevice has a weak engine and is carrying a bit more drag because you are unable to design wings that lose AoA with speed... :roll: