Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[stu112]

When i watched it back again, Massa was defending against Button through turn 11 down to turn 12, so was off line and didn't get good drive coming out of 12 and this slowed him down. Alonso took 12 normally so exited faster and caught up with Massa going down to 13. Going in to 13, Massa again goes defensive and this looks like it compromised his apex speed.......Alonso again just took turn 13 as normal and had more speed off the corner than Massa did and was able to drive past Massa on the way down to 14.

To be honest, when I saw it happen live and even the quick replay i thought Massa had slowed down and let him through, but after watching it back a couple times there, i think it was a genuine overtake.

[Maidel]

You keep repeating the same arguments (or lack of) over the last pages again and again and all over again. We got your point(s) and views on the specific incident. Thank you. Anything different to add to the topic of this thread would be most welcome.

Since when did 12 posts become 'pages and pages?'

Your posts have dragged the thread off topic...


But back to the topic being discussed.

I think it's very clear that massa slows to let alonso, however I will conceed that without race telemetary from massa car it is impossible to prove it.

[stu112]

You keep repeating the same arguments (or lack of) over the last pages again and again and all over again. We got your point(s) and views on the specific incident. Thank you. Anything different to add to the topic of this thread would be most welcome.

Since when did 12 posts become 'pages and pages?'

Your posts have dragged the thread off topic...


But back to the topic being discussed.

I think it's very clear that massa slows to let alonso, however I will conceed that without race telemetary from massa car it is impossible to prove it.

Im honestly not looking for an argument, im just interested in your opinion.......if Massa was letting Alonso pass, why did he try and defend going into turn 13. If he was going to let him past, he could have just got off the throttle a bit and taken the correct lines.

[Maidel]

Im honestly not looking for an argument, im just interested in your opinion.......if Massa was letting Alonso pass, why did he try and defend going into turn 13. If he was going to let him past, he could have just got off the throttle a bit and taken the correct lines.

I neither am looking for an argument, someone else was derailing and accusing us of going on and on for pages.

To answer your question, from my viewing there are 2 answers and I'm not sure which is true.

1) he actually wasn't defending the position at all, but simply didn't want to lose too much time letting alonso past so kept to the racing line until alonso could pass without forcing him to slow too much.

2) he remembered the debarcal that happened last year and although the rules have changed this year, wanted to make it look more convincing.

Or I suppose answer 3) he's utterly lost it as a racing driver, but I can't believe this given how he defended against button only 30 seconds earlier.

[andartop]

Maidel, I respect your views and right to post your opinion. However, you have a total of 16 posts in this forum, 10 of which in this thread inform us of your opinion that Massa let Alonso pass in the Australian GP.
Don't misquote me, I never said "pages and pages", I said "again and again over the last few pages".
Would be interested to hear your opinion on Massa's recent performances in general. Further discussion on that incident from the Australian GP might be more appropriate in the thread of the Australian GP. That is all.

[stu112]

Im honestly not looking for an argument, im just interested in your opinion.......if Massa was letting Alonso pass, why did he try and defend going into turn 13. If he was going to let him past, he could have just got off the throttle a bit and taken the correct lines.

I neither am looking for an argument, someone else was derailing and accusing us of going on and on for pages.

To answer your question, from my viewing there are 2 answers and I'm not sure which is true.

1) he actually wasn't defending the position at all, but simply didn't want to lose too much time letting alonso past so kept to the racing line until alonso could pass without forcing him to slow too much.

2) he remembered the debarcal that happened last year and although the rules have changed this year, wanted to make it look more convincing.

Or I suppose answer 3) he's utterly lost it as a racing driver, but I can't believe this given how he defended against button only 30 seconds earlier.

Fair enough, I respect your point of view, but im afraid i will need to disagree with you (i have been wrong before though lol). To me it looks like he was off line in 2 or 3 corners (due to defending) and to me you can visibly see him lose time in each corner because of this and that allowed Alonso to catch and pass. It looked like a chain reaction of him going off line through 11 defending against Button and it just threw him off for the next couple of corners and lost him so much time.

Anyway, doesn't look like we'll agree lol, so im happy just to agreeing to disagree on this matter and leave it at that

[Maidel]

andarop- Don't mean to be funny. There haven't exactly been lots of races this season on which to base his performance...

And if we are going to get techinical with my posts at least 2 of them have been defending myself against unprovoked semi personal interjections from you.

Please let it drop I came here for a reasoned debate about f1, which I was happily getting until you decided to police the Internet.


Stu112 - yours is a valid interpretation of the available facts, I just happen to disagree

[andartop]

I'm not policing anything mate, that's up to the mods.

I take it that the use of plural in the topic of this thread implied we could discuss Massa's performances over the last few seasons really.

We started off discussing Massa's motivation, talent, ability, possible issues with recovering from that freak incident, got down to a bit more technical issues like tire management and skills in wet races.. then the Massa-Alonso-Team Orders debate kicked in.

But, hey, I'll let it drop as you suggest. I'll even report my own posts as off-topic. Knock yourselves out!

[Shrieker]

Yes anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you needs to get a grip on reality...

Sorry if I hurt your feelings (no pun intended). At the very least Massa lifts of slightly, making it easier on Alonso. Telemetry data would prove it I'm sure. I'm also sure we won't be getting it ever (lol) so this debate probably will go on and on

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, something different would be this:

When I race I can evaluate my speed and those of my kids. We have almost no telemetry, definitely we haven't team orders, we compete fiercely with each other, we care nothing about money and we are good team mates.

However, when one of us must pass another, we don't even talk. A glance is more than enough.

We know what we have to do and we do it.

It's kind of what happens when you play soccer with your soccer friends: do you need someone telling you who has a chance for goal? Actually, you don't: you pass the ball or kick the ball, period.

BTW, Maidel (welcome!), Andartop is a very good Internet cop. I can attest that.

I still think this "ain't no fan forum": some people have learned to say "Hey, I was mistaken" or "Hey, I was a pain in the neck" after reviewing some numbers. So, numbers it is. We eagerly await them. Numbers hurt no ego.

Finally, if anyone is interested in my opinion about Felipe Massa it is a simple one: he has the balls of a lion.

[segedunum]

april fools joke or is this really coming from Pat Fry?

http://www.f1-direct.com/news-f1/show_n ... _news=9584

"The team must change its approach to the design of the car, Formula 1 does could make a lot of miles in testing, we focused more of our program this winter on the reliability putting aside performance, this which is not good compromise, we are no longer in the 2000s, Ferrari must learn to win. " Explains the English engineer, strengthened by its long experience at McLaren.

Well, that rings true to me. Ferrari didn't need to look at the Australian Grandprix but what on Earth they'd been doing in winter testing. They simply didn't test the limits of their car enough and ultimately found out exactly where they were when they competed. Somehow Red Bull seem to have managed to push their car and know exactly where they were without revealing anything.

[segedunum]

But from watching the clip over and over again it's very clear that massa slows, let's alonso catch up, and then meekly rolls over and let's him past.

Indeed. Proving whether Massa lifted off is impossible to know, but what is crystal clear is that out of turn 12 Massa doesn't defend when he has an opportunity to and doesn't try and contest the position through 13. "He couldn't do anything" doesn't cut it". It's a case of "He wouldn't do anything".

[PlatinumZealot]

numbers it is. We eagerly await them. Numbers hurt no ego.

Finally, if anyone is interested in my opinion about Felipe Massa it is a simple one: he has the balls of a lion.

You mean this lion?

[Maidel]

Ciro - thank you.

And also, I have to agree with you there, massa has to have some pretty damn big ones. Anyone who can almost die doing something and then jump straight back in as soon as possible has balls the size of melons. Possibly the brain the size of a peanut, but huge balls.

Segedunum - that's very true and even if we had the cars telemetary it wouldn't show WHY he slowed, merely that he did slow.

[Gerhard Berger]

But from watching the clip over and over again it's very clear that massa slows, let's alonso catch up, and then meekly rolls over and let's him past.

Indeed. Proving whether Massa lifted off is impossible to know, but what is crystal clear is that out of turn 12 Massa doesn't defend when he has an opportunity to and doesn't try and contest the position through 13. "He couldn't do anything" doesn't cut it". It's a case of "He wouldn't do anything".

erm Massa did defend his position through turn 13.