Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[Gerhard Berger]

Yes anyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you needs to get a grip on reality...

Sorry if I hurt your feelings (no pun intended). At the very least Massa lifts of slightly, making it easier on Alonso. Telemetry data would prove it I'm sure. I'm also sure we won't be getting it ever (lol) so this debate probably will go on and on

So where is this telemetry data?

[Tamburello]

Well from what I saw massa slowed waited for button to move over and let him back past and alonso pulled along side. It was fairly obvious that it was a 'team' thing, there was plenty of time for the team to order it, the commentary team had been discussing it for 30 seconds before it happened so there was plenty of time for the team to order it.

It happened at the next set of corner after the Button pass on him! The cars were doing the whole first sector in 30 seconds, so please don't try that one.

[Maidel]

Well from what I saw massa slowed waited for button to move over and let him back past and alonso pulled along side. It was fairly obvious that it was a 'team' thing, there was plenty of time for the team to order it, the commentary team had been discussing it for 30 seconds before it happened so there was plenty of time for the team to order it.

It happened at the next set of corner after the Button pass on him! The cars were doing the whole first sector in 30 seconds, so please don't try that one.

Hi, thanks for the polite response. If you had bothered to read the following posts you will have noticed ive revised that statement on reviewing the available evidence.

[Giblet]

I'm thinking it's time for everyone to wind it back a notch here.

The race is over, and until we hear the team radio, we can not know for sure. All we can do is look at what we saw and heard and draw a conclusion.

Problem is that conclusion will be an opinion until all the facts come to light, and we may have to wait for Massa's autobiography for that.

The race is over, there is nothing new to add, so let's all work to keep this thread from being locked shall we?

[Gerhard Berger]

Well here is what Massa had to say about the incident:

"The rules are clear you must do this if you cut a chicane, and Jenson is experienced enough to know that without having to wait for the team to tell him what to do. After he got by, Alonso also got past me as I ended up being quite slow because of the fight with Jenson."

No mention of team orders whatsoever.

[Maidel]

Don't mean to be funny, but he said exactly the same thing last year after that in incident where we all 'know' team orders were used.

Sorry to carry it on.

[Gerhard Berger]

Don't mean to be funny, but he said exactly the same thing last year after that in incident where we all 'know' team orders were used.

Sorry to carry it on.

The difference being that team orders were illegal last year. He couldn't come out and say it was team orders otherwise it would have left Ferrari open to all sorts of punishments from the FIA.

[Formula None]

[...]

[Pup]

Well here is what Massa had to say about the incident:

"The rules are clear you must do this if you cut a chicane, and Jenson is experienced enough to know that without having to wait for the team to tell him what to do. After he got by, Alonso also got past me as I ended up being quite slow because of the fight with Jenson."

No mention of team orders whatsoever.

And we would expect him to say this instead?

"After he got past me, I had to let Alonso through since I'm pretty much just a numpty now who's F1 aspirations have been crushed by my team."

I've no idea if he was ordered to let Alonso through or not. But, given that...

a) team orders are legal now primarily because Ferrari fought to have them reinstated
b) Ferrari had no problems issuing team orders even when they were illegal
c) Ferrari has shown that they will use team orders even at the first race
d) Ferrari has already shown that they have their eggs in Alonso's basket

...I think the burden of proof lies with those who think that Massa was not ordered to let him by.

[Gerhard Berger]

Well here is what Massa had to say about the incident:

"The rules are clear you must do this if you cut a chicane, and Jenson is experienced enough to know that without having to wait for the team to tell him what to do. After he got by, Alonso also got past me as I ended up being quite slow because of the fight with Jenson."

No mention of team orders whatsoever.

And we would expect him to say this instead?

"After he got past me, I had to let Alonso through since I'm pretty much just a numpty now who's F1 aspirations have been crushed by my team."

Let's not be silly now. If it were team orders, why would Massa not say it?

I've no idea if he was ordered to let Alonso through or not. But, given that...
a) team orders are legal now primarily because Ferrari fought to have them reinstated

That's not really true.

b) Ferrari had no problems issuing team orders even when they were illegal

Same goes for other teams (Renault, Mclaren, Red Bull, BMW Sauber). Why single out Ferrari?

c) Ferrari has shown that they will use team orders even at the first race

Maybe back in the Schumacher days, though that has about as much relevance has Mclaren using team orders in Melbourne 1998.

d) Ferrari has already shown that they have their eggs in Alonso's basket

How?

...I think the burden of proof lies with those who think that Massa was not ordered to let him by.

There is no proof of team orders being issued.

[Pup]

OK, I completely agree with you.

[andartop]

Good to see team orders are still the main focus of the discussion in this thread.

Fact: team orders were entirely legal and quite common in Formula 1 from 1950 until 2002, and as of this year. Ask Ciro, he was there in the 1950's.

Since the topic of this thread is Massa's recent performances, how about discussing his performance prior to or following the position exchange/overtake/team order/you name it with Alonso in the 2011 Australian GP?

Or just rename the bloody thing to "Big Bad Ferrari Team Orders Doom Poor Little Felipe. Again." or something? Then I can quit all the policing and simply stop visiting this thread, desperately searching for an interesting post. Like, any numbers about the size of Felipe's balls?

[Maidel]

Until button 'illegally' passed him and utterly threw him off he was doing a good job of defending his position. However he was doing so to the greater detriment of his race as he was defending so hard he was causing the drivers infront to pull further away.

Now if he was driving to the maximum capacity of his car (which given Alonsos speed is highly debatable) then he was doing the right thing to keep button behind him. However, if he was impacting on his ultimate pace by defending so hard then he was doing so to the greater detriment of his race as there would be every opportunity that later in the race with good strategy and pit stops that he could have leap frogged cars infront, including button.

Therefore if he was driving to the pace he could, then he was much much slower than alonso, however if his defending was impacting on his race to the extent it appeared to then it would seem he was either holding button up so his team no.1 could catch up, or he's simply too much of a racing driver to take the long view on the race over his immediate position.

[andartop]

Or, he was really struggling but managing to keep Button at bay simply because despite all the gizmos to facilitate overtaking, it's still not an easy task at Albert Park.

What happened then after the incident with Alonso? Felipe kept driving backwards, and ended the race behind both Saubers, narrowly avoiding getting lapped by Vettel.

Of course one should not judge a F1 driver by a single race performance, but this one was certainly far from Felipe's best, to put it this way.

So, why not have a look at his other most recent performances to try and get a clearer picture?

Overall in 2010, Felipe managed 5 podiums, no poles and no race wins. To avoid all the controversy (again), let's say he could have managed 4 podiums, no poles and possibly 1 race win.

His team mate, He-who-cannot-be-named, managed in the same car 5 podiums, 2 poles and 5 race wins, or, in the alternate reality, that would have been 6 podiums, 2 poles and 4 race wins.

I would never dare suggest that Felipe has "lost" it. I don't believe one can "lose" his talent and skill. But it's obvious that there is a problem, and I don't think it's his team mate.

Why? Felipe is a very experienced driver now, he has the skills, he has the knowledge, and - as we agreed - he has balls of steel. If the team orders was his sole issue, he would have definitely given it all to prove them wrong; he would be qualifying very close to or in front of his team mate, and in the races he would be right up his team mate's ass. Which he doesn't seem to able to do. He is a damn Formula 1 driver, risking his life every other Sunday because he loves what he does. If he had simply "given up", why keep racing with Ferrari? Why keep racing at all?

[Maidel]

Or, he was really struggling but managing to keep Button at bay simply because despite all the gizmos to facilitate overtaking, it's still not an easy task at Albert Park.

That was sort of what I meant. I think this season will show in certain circumstances it is in fact better to let the car pass you, dont let it ruin your times and when he has passed you, you then get the benefits of the new gizmos.

However as its the first race and people are unsure as to how the new regs will play out, we will have to let him and the team off. (remember last year when everyone was sure the tires were going to colapse and hamilton pitted, only for the most of the front runners to stay out and he ended up way down from where he could be).

What happened then after the incident with Alonso? Felipe kept driving backwards, and ended the race behind both Saubers, narrowly avoiding getting lapped by Vettel.

You see, thats what I dont understand. Ruining his race or not, he was doing a blinding job keeping button behind him, in what has been shown to be a better car (so far) being driven by possibly a better driver.

I think it really shows his mental state. If we assume he DOESNT have team orders to let alonso past, what we can see is a driver completely going to pieces once he lost the place to button, its like he had a little self destruct button (no pun intented)

Overall in 2010, Felipe managed 5 podiums, no poles and no race wins. To avoid all the controversy (again), let's say he could have managed 4 podiums, no poles and possibly 1 race win.

His team mate, He-who-cannot-be-named, managed in the same car 5 podiums, 2 poles and 5 race wins, or, in the alternate reality, that would have been 6 podiums, 2 poles and 4 race wins.

Although alonso is the only person in the same machinery as him, I dont think its a fair comparason. Alonso gets all the calls (remember massa having to queue behind him in the pits last year). It would have been like comparing hamitlon to kov a few seasons back. Sure there was no 'no 1' driver - but it was bleedin obvious to everyone that he simply couldnt compete with hamilton and thus the team was built around Lewis.

I would never dare suggest that Felipe has "lost" it. I don't believe one can "lose" his talent and skill. But it's obvious that there is a problem, and I don't think it's his team mate.

I think he has 'lost' it. Not for any reason other than his accident. There have been a couple of recent british celebs who have had head injuries and when you read about them and their pivate lives you understand what a tramatic event it really is. (im thinking about top gears Hampster and james cracknel).

Obviously as a proffesional sports man rather than a TV presenter/ retired sportsman, they can be far more candid about their accidents than massa can, especially if he want to keep his job.

I think it has taken 5% off everything he does (Cracknels injury has taken about 50% off!0 and that 5% is the difference between the top and mid field or lower.