Pirelli's poor consistancy a reflection of their road tires?

[Belatti]

"Well, sure, the Frinkiac 7 looks impressive - don't touch it! But I predict that within 100 years, computers will be twice as powerful, 10000 times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE7mi-gdIYw

[DaveW]

Let's face it...They keep the sidewall they have so the cars don't have to have real suspension...

An interesting fact about Pirelli compared with 2010 Bridgestone tyres is that they have different mechanical properties (vertical stiffness of the rear tyres & the stiffness "split" are both quite different). And yet we were told that FOTA prepared specifications for the new tyres before the supplier had been selected. A logical conclusion would be that the specifications covered only the aerodynamic properties of the new tyres. That would not be a surprise to me, sadly....

[PlatinumZealot]

how do you control the aerodyamic property of a tyre? interesting

[Sayshina]

(a) Make their own manufacturing easier. If they have lots of build equipment for 18" stuff, then they don't have to front all the money to buy a large volume of 13" (their current 13" production volume requirement is probably not huge).

(b) Would put them in a good position when it came time for contract extension, as they'd be the only company with experience doing 18" F1 tires... as opposed to Pirelli, Goodyear, and Bridgestone who all at least had some experience with the 13" variety.

Just some theories. I'd lean more toward (a) than (b). Moot point now.

Yes, moot point now, but you did ask who.

Why would Michelin lack 13" build gear? They just left F1 a couple of years ago, and they supplied most of the field during a tire war. Surely now that there is effectively no development pressure they could keep up with demand, no?

And I don't personally see how being the only mfg. with 18" experience would help them at all. The FIA has made it pretty clear they could care less if the people they contract with actually have the experience to make a quality product. That doesn't mean Michelin wouldn't TRY to gain an advantage, only that I doubt they'd get one in reality.

By the way, can we really say Pirelli and Goodyear have experience with F1 rubber? Weren't the cars still using bias ply the last time either of those guys were involved?

Another by the way, but do current F1 tires use true radials, or something similar to a hybrid not quite a bias ply like bike tires from a few years ago? With bikes they were used to keep the shape steady under load, which seems to be a major F1 aero concern, and since the heat buildup problem they seem to be facing is too little rather than too much..... Just wondering.

[DaveW]

how do you control the aerodyamic property of a tyre? interesting

Not quite the reference I was seeking but it does indicate, perhaps, that the aerodynamic properties of tyres are taken seriously.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22904.html

"Q: There's been some concerns about the realism of your wind tunnel tyres. How close to the definitive tyre are they now?

There's lots of elements to wind tunnel tyres. The rigidity aspect is very important for F1 cars because they are so sensitive to ride height and from that point of view we are there, we believe. We are still working on improving the footprint of the wind tunnel tyres, which will come with a new profile modification we are making at the end of this month. We're close, but I've always said from the start that one of the biggest challenges of F1 is the wind tunnel tyres. It's a world many people don't see or understand but making these small tyres is not just scaling down a full-size tyre. It's actually a completely different tyre that bears no relation to anything else you make."


I assume the only reason for requiring scale tyres for wind tunnel work would be aero-related.

[Raptor22]

It's been interesting to note that the massive differences in tire degration, grip and overall consistancy may reflect badly on a potential Pirelli's buyers decisions to purchase a road tire. It would for me.

If I were to re-tire my 911, I would take a Bridgetone vs a mickymouse Pirelli anyday. The Bridgetone years brought some awsome displays of dominance and professionalism that will stick in my mind for years to come. What's Pirellis legacy going to be? The manufacturer that made one tire that was 2 sec/lap slower than the tire, just to increase the amount of passes per race? It really cheapens the sport and the tire manufacturers image in my opinion.

I also still remember the Bridgetone vs Michelin wars and how badly they made Michelin look. Bridgetone, (through competition) came out as the best tire helping Ferrari and Schumi dominate.

It will be interesting to see how Pirelli will spin this new dawn of F1 tire, made not to go fast or last the longest but to artificially spice up the show.

This in my opinion, is not F1's finest year. I hope the gimmickry will stop and get back to some real racing where best car and the best driver wins.

What complete and utter rubbish!

Every tyre manufacturer in their first year of F1 has had problems.
Every tyre manufacturer has fullfilled the brief given to them by the teams and the governing body.

As for road cars, I use Pirelli P-Zero Rosso 225 40/18 on my GTi.
Excellent tyre. Best compromise between grip and longevity in the category

[G-Rock]

You're not getting my point Raptor. Up until 2 years ago, a tire manufacturer brought the best tires to the sport that they could produce. This gave us quali tires that were 2-3 sec a lap quicker, tires that were required to last an entire race distance, tires that had to beat a rival etc.
Now we have this stupid requirement to produce tires that last 30 laps and tires that last 10 laps and every team has to use each set during the course of the race. There is no practical reason for this, only to make the race more tactially challenging and maybe some more passing. That's rubbish in my opinion.

Why not let the tire manufacturer make the best tire they can bring to the track and leave them alone? Driver skill and car dynamics will do the rest.

If Mercedes were told to produce an engine that would gradually wear out during a race distance to make the final laps more exciting, would they do it? Would that be good for their image as a manufacturer of high quality cars?

[Richard]

G-Rock - You seem to think the Pirelli tyres used in F1 have any relationship with the road tyres on your car. Would you also buy a Renault Megane on the basis that Renault are doing well in F1?

[Jersey Tom]

Why would Michelin lack 13" build gear? They just left F1 a couple of years ago, and they supplied most of the field during a tire war. Surely now that there is effectively no development pressure they could keep up with demand, no?

I'm sure they still have some. Why would they keep a majority of their factories tooled for 13" when they're doing larger stuff for ALMS? Or, the larger stuff could be more modern. I still wager that a good portion of the Michelin push for 18" was manufacturing related.

By the way, can we really say Pirelli and Goodyear have experience with F1 rubber? Weren't the cars still using bias ply the last time either of those guys were involved?

No.

Another by the way, but do current F1 tires use true radials

Depends on your definition of just how radial a tire has to be, to call it a "radial." Obviously I can't speak for Pirelli and how they've build their stuff, but I'd wager that they're less radial than you think.

For that matter I bet you could pick out directional ply angle changes between tires from post rig data... ie saying one tire is more or less radial than another.

As had been discussed in some other thread, IMO what most people think of for what constitutes a radial or bias ply tire isn't really great. Sometimes better to think of it as belted vs unbelted, or even how the belt and carcass are built in manufacturing.

Then again, just about all of that is unimportant for the end user. Likely best to treat it like a black box than try to figure out the specifics of how it works.

[Sayshina]

Why would they keep a majority of their factories tooled for 13" when they're doing larger stuff for ALMS?....

....Then again, just about all of that is unimportant for the end user. Likely best to treat it like a black box than try to figure out the specifics of how it works.

Well, most of my experience dealing with large manufacturers is with Boeing and Ford, but I can testify that neither of those 2 throw anything out, ever. Okay, Boeing occasionally sells off WWII era office equipment. Ford has hundreds, maybe thousands, of casting molds strewn around their factories, for crap they haven't made in decades. When I asked a guy about them once he said "Well, you never know, we might need one some day".

My personal dealings with the Dunlop guy were all centered around tire feedback. Raw performance didn't mean so much, as my "style" was to throw it in and assume I could sort it out later. And, ya, I did think of them as something of a black box. We tuned our own engines, and obviously did our own setups, but tires are hard to figure out. Mostly I'm interested in the subject because although I'm far too old to put it to any use now I'd still like to know why I could be as fast as I was and crash as much as I did.

G-rock: I still don't understand this entire concept. Look, I know that Cindy Crawford sells dresses simply by wearing them, but what moron actually thinks as she's buying the dress that it's going to make her look like Cindy Crawford?

Will stupid people base their purchases on Pirelli's F1 performance? Possibly. Does it matter? Not to me, I firmly believe stupid people should be allowed to handicap themselves whenever they choose.

For any given road vehicle there is sometimes a single best tire available, but more often 2 to 5 very good ones that are all pretty close. The balance of power changes every few years as mfg's come out with new designs and because they all have their own development cycles.

Liter class sportbike tires are a VERY hotly contested catagory right now. Lots of mfg's are in the middle of what could reasonably be called a tire war. This is great news overall for the owners, but who should you buy? Should you buy Pirelli because they are the sole supplier of WSB (2 wheeled nascar) and make a very good product? Bridgestone because they are the sole supplier of Moto GP (2 wheeled F1)? Should you rule out Michelin just because they got kicked out of Moto GP? How about Continental, makers of very good road tires but not particularly big on racing? Should you perhaps do your research, find out which tire at the moment has the best price/performance/lifespan ratio? Should you perhaps honestly apraise your own abilities and see if you could actually make any use of that tiny extra performance anyway?

Building a dress that looks great on Cindy Crawford has very little to do with building a dress that looks great on your mom. Building a great, or a not so great, race tire has little to do with building a great road tire.

[Raptor22]

You're not getting my point Raptor. Up until 2 years ago, a tire manufacturer brought the best tires to the sport that they could produce. This gave us quali tires that were 2-3 sec a lap quicker, tires that were required to last an entire race distance, tires that had to beat a rival etc.
Now we have this stupid requirement to produce tires that last 30 laps and tires that last 10 laps and every team has to use each set during the course of the race. There is no practical reason for this, only to make the race more tactially challenging and maybe some more passing. That's rubbish in my opinion.

Why not let the tire manufacturer make the best tire they can bring to the track and leave them alone? Driver skill and car dynamics will do the rest.

If Mercedes were told to produce an engine that would gradually wear out during a race distance to make the final laps more exciting, would they do it? Would that be good for their image as a manufacturer of high quality cars?

Then right a letter to the FIA and tell them you think THEIR mandate to Pirelli sucks.

You're shooting the messenger.

If Mercedes were asked to produce an engine that wore out they would produce an engine that wore out because thats what the rules requires. Of they would leave if the rules did not suit them.
Pireli produced a tyre to the mandate given to them. Job done. Nuff said.

[Jersey Tom]

Except the level of wear and give-up in these tires, at least in the initial testing, was dramatically more than I believe they were intending. There's a difference between "Let's have some tires that give-up some over the race to put emphasis on pit strategy and tire management" and "Let's have tires that shred to hell and lose all their grip over a handful of laps."

But hey, all part of the learning process - and a difficult one at that given the timing. Can't hate on em for it.

[G-Rock]

Jersey,
FIA made the mandate and Pirelli went for it. Why did Bridgestone pull out? I'm speculating but maybe because these cheesy mandates weren't helping their image any.

You don't see these mandates in any other series.

I'm not writing the FIA any letters. The tv ratings will tell the tale. I just pray that F1 isn't turning into a Speed Racer type series. I'd like to enjoy F1 for many more decades!!

[Sayshina]

I'd also point out that it's not like the FIA has demanded they make inconsistent tires that wear differently from set to set. I'm sure they'd LOVE tires like that, as they're constantly trying to shake up the order and "spice up the show", but at least as of now they haven't required it.

[Raptor22]

Like Bridgestone who ahd tyre problems wen they entered F1 and Michelin who had tyre problems and goodyear when they had tyre problems (PIrelli was the tyre to have then), and Avon had problems when they joined F1.

Go back in history of F1 and you will see F1 tyre development is rapid but every tyre manufacturer has had problems in their first year.
Bridgestones also did not last long and offered less grio initially.
Michelins had inconsistent behaviour till the developed the wider carcass.
Avons's would loose their tread, Goodyears compouns were up to ****....

Its all there.....Pirelli has completed one race so far...and already the superior intellects are bringing daggers to the table. Bunch of twats