Red Bull KERS strategy

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
rayden
rayden
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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CyleB wrote:im going to say Red Bull doesn't run KERS in China... i mean why would they if it fails then they have a huge chunk of weight in a area they wouldnt really want.... i know they add ballast and there is weight dispersion requirements but those can be moved to suit the car and track where as the KERS can not
i think they will run it, for the simple fact that they have to. They must get it working at some point. and without testing, it must be run on race weekends. and you can't just pull it off before Q, too many balance issues.

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CyleB
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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they could run it in FP1 and 2 and take it out over night.... or they might just take it out in all they only have 3 days before start of China GP
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piast9
piast9
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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Fil wrote:Renault has supplied a working system, evolved from the working 2009 system, & Red Bull only need to package it within their own constraints. So what is Newey on about?
Yes, that's strange. It looks like Renault supplied the KERS but without the user's manual...

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atanatizante
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Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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Did anybody saw Vettel`s KERS on board footage working at the start of the race? We saw Webber`s but he said that his wasn`t working before the start?
What I`m trying to say is the fact that RB didn`t put KERS again!
These are the following reasons:
1.With KERS the rear tyres goes quickly because affects weights distribution. Just see 2009 season ...
2.They have had issues in FP1 with Vettel and Webber didn`t said it worked 100%. Also in winter testing were the same issues. You have to bare in mind that the system is custom made, because just one of the three components is Renault 100%
4.The pole position was on the clean side of the track
5.The prospect of a rain race
6.The Renault`s engine torque is the best on the grid. Just look at the Heidfeld and Petrov`s starts

So once again, did anybody saw Vettel`s on board footage with KERS working?
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marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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On RTL Vettel assured his KERS was working at the start and he would not have had any chance to stay in front without using kers...
He also stated that Rocky his race engineer advised him to switch off KERS at one point in the race -did not know why ,but also did not ask for the reasons-
To him it was not obvious why he was told to disable it as it was performing ok .

Dr.Marko gave away some info about the RBR KERS in the interview with Lauda (both ostrichs..you know ....)
RedBull is using a KERS system BASED on Renault /Marelli technology but has heavily customised the electronics and software of Renault/Marelli which is Renault IP...

Is this because they are not allowed to use the Renault software? or is it because they have decided to change the layout dramatically so they cannot use hardware and software of their supplier? he was not prepared to elaborate further but obviously they cannot use the complete Renault setup.
Interestingly Team Lotus do not use KERS as well so maybe Renault KERS is in fact
Genii /Renault IP? and not part of the package... :?

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raymondu999
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I don't think anyone saw his onboards, unless they were using some sort of red button service to ride on board on the start. Having said that, they're running their massive exhaust, which they use only when there is KERS. I sincerely doubt that Newey would sacrifice packaging to keep up a ruse. The whole point of not putting the KERS unit on was that they could use the smaller packaging. But they had the bigger packaging
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BreezyRacer
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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First, DRS isn't nearly effective when you don't have KERS to go with it. And just look at Webber's race. Even in a very fast car it was a tough slog every step of the way.

That was a hell of a pass he put on Massa. Without KERS that was a nearly impossible move considering that Massa knew it was coming and had KERS at his disposal.

They need KERS bad and I'm surprised that RB have taken it so casually. They are just fortunate that the rest of the car is fast so they can mask that lack of 80 hp a lap.

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pearsey13
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Joined: 06 Apr 2010, 04:04

Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I really don't know how Vettel's KERS system worked at malaysia but Webbers didn't. It seems a bit strange.. and even though Vettel's was working, he was told by is team not to use it for the majority of the race which i dont see the point in if they are carryig all that extra weight. :|
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BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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BreezyRacer wrote:I have to wonder if Webber's KERS unit actually failed in Q3. No proof but ...
Peter Windsor in GPWeek says that Webber's car was away from the others in Parc Ferme
post qualifying because of fear of a "KERS related event". I guess you would have to say from that statement that Webber did indeed have KERS problems in qually.

marekk
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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BreezyRacer wrote:First, DRS isn't nearly effective when you don't have KERS to go with it. And just look at Webber's race. Even in a very fast car it was a tough slog every step of the way.

That was a hell of a pass he put on Massa. Without KERS that was a nearly impossible move considering that Massa knew it was coming and had KERS at his disposal.

They need KERS bad and I'm surprised that RB have taken it so casually. They are just fortunate that the rest of the car is fast so they can mask that lack of 80 hp a lap.
They need KERS just to go off the line if they have P1 and P2. After 1st lap they will be +2s ahead and don't have to overtake anyone.

tuj
tuj
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I didn't see any on-board telemetry shots of Vettel's car using KERS but the pit shots show it was clearly fitted to the car. In watching him, it isn't apparent how he is operating the system, but perhaps it is done via the left foot ala the f-fuct of mclaren last year.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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I suggest we take Adrian Newey's comment at face value. We know that all teams have different implementations of the operator functions of the SECU. KERS is a massive package because it interfaces with a ton of functionalities not only of the steering wheel but also how the brakes operate, the change in brake bias, joint operation of KERS and DRS and a bunch of other issues. In the end you have to make that software development work to your driver's satisfaction in cooperation with the SECU and the engine manufacturer. Ferrari, Renault and McLaren had the opportunity to develop this fairly complex sub system for one year and simply had to make some updates. Red Bull, Mercedes and Williams are still on a steep learning curve. It may take some races for this to level off. All they can do is work hard and use all their test miles to get it sorted ASAP. They will not run without KERS unless they absolutely have to.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Sayshina
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Re: Red Bull KERS strategy

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pearsey13 wrote:I really don't know how Vettel's KERS system worked at malaysia but Webbers didn't. It seems a bit strange.. and even though Vettel's was working, he was told by is team not to use it for the majority of the race which i dont see the point in if they are carryig all that extra weight. :|
There are several reasons to do this. Just off the top of my head it could be:

1: Mechanical failure, causing a performance degradation. Wouldn't want that to happen to the leading car.

2: Electrical connection or wire short failure: Could easily cause a fire, throwing away points.

3: Whatever failure they've been trying to track down has been destroying the evidence when it lets go. In this case you stop using it as soon as the first sign of trouble shows hoping you can find some evidence.

Case 3 used to be very common with engines, particularly with oiling problems. If you were out of the points anyway you'd pull the cars in before they blew.

If it were case 2 and I were running the team, I'd be tempted to bring Vettel in for a cautionary stop, even if it meant giving away 1st.

On the other hand, if they really did separate Webbers car from the others that pretty much screams electrical problem, so....

You can't say RB are 2 years behind. I doubt anybody seriously put development time/money into kers last year. You need to remember that DURING last year kers was dead, and seemed very unlikely to return. Also, it is the nature of engineering that once somebody else has found a solution to a problem, even without any knowledge of how they solved it, you can solve said problem in much less time. RB are, worst case, 3 months behind.

When F1 switched from V-10's to V-8's several teams had problems with components that had been well established and reliable for years. Some of the old timers chuckled and commented that the young guys were going to have to learn how to live with a V-8. The current cars are extraordinarily hard on parts, particularly electrical connections and wires. It's been said more than once that if a wire on a current F1 car can move at all that it WILL wear through the insulation during a race.

Renault may be 3rd in kers development, but they still abandoned it for a big chunk of '09 and can be assumed to be well behind the big 2. I wouldn't be surprised of they were behind Mercedes as well.

If we assume for the moment that the RB representatives are being honest, all of their kers problems to date make perfect sense. They all apear to be teething troubles with a new system, complicated by the teams decision to push the packaging limits and complicated further by massive restrictions on testing.

There's no reason to go chasing conspiracy theories when you can find a perfectly rational explanation from given statements. The only thing I'd add to those statements is a sentiment that's been put forward by several others here, which is that kers still seems to be very much a marginal tech. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they pull it off for the next couple of races. A malfunctioning kers could easily put you out of a race, whereas running without kers may not have any negative effects at all, and at worst will drop you 1 spot at the start.

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atanatizante
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Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: Mercedes GP W02

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Mercedes lost time per lap in Australia because they`ve got brake balance problems due to faulty KERS unit. So why didn`t RB face the same problem here? Remember after race they told us that they have had the KERS ...
The answer is very simple: because they didn`t put it on the car!!! That`s why ...
If anybody could tell me why they showed us on board footage only with Webber`s KERS and only after he told us that it doesn`t work anymore?
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shadowkhas
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Re: Mercedes GP W02

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They showed onboard of Vettel's car with the KERS graphic after he was told not to use it. There was a sliver of it used up.