How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Pup
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Changes to the Indian GP already.
Three turns out of the 16 on the racing track have been modified by German track designer Herman Tilke to provide more overtaking opportunities in what the organisers claim to be one of the fastest circuits in the world.

The top speed on the 5.14km track is pegged at a zipping 320 kmph and the overtaking opportunities will only add to the thrills.

"The width of the turn has been increased by 15-20 meters, so that 5-6 cars get the space to go past each other," said Sameer Gaur, managing director, Jaypee Sports International (JPSI) on Monday.
6 cars wide - sounds about right. :roll:

At least now we know that passing "only adds to the thrill". It's apparently not necessary - just a bonus of sorts. So quit yer yappin'.

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Pandamasque
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Must be good for rally-cross!

rjs
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Thats what i want, if a driver makes a mistake, the race is ended for that driver.
You also have to get it past the FIA too, who apparently aren't keen on seeing drivers hitting walls at high speed.

As Ciro mentioned, the FIA has a whole host of requirements of modern F1 tracks that include maximum elevation changes, minimum run-off, width, etc. I'm no fan of Tilke but from my reading of those regs, it's the FIA that is the problem; very few of the classic tracks would be approved if you were trying to host an F1 event on them for the first time.

Final point; not every corner is supposed to be an overtaking opportunity for an F1 car. While I support the idea that where possible it would be good if tracks didn't restrict overtaking, they aren't supposed to create overtaking apart from being a series -- and package -- of interesting challenges for a driver and car.

Rj

cossie
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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FrukostScones wrote:Image
i agree, hopefully they don't muck up Austin, Crap i wish Road America would up grade, and wasn't so far in the boondocks , it would be a perfect F1 track
Image

beelsebob
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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cossie wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:Image
i agree, hopefully they don't muck up Austin, Crap i wish Road America would up grade, and wasn't so far in the boondocks , it would be a perfect F1 track
Image
Man, that looks almost as boring as Magny Cours.

Turns 2, 4, 11 and 13 (and possibly even 7) simply wouldn't exist for an F1 car, and 5 is probably the only overtaking point on the track. Personally, I think the Austin map looks pretty awesome – the best tilke drome so far it would appear.

Pup
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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beelsebob wrote:Personally, I think the Austin map looks pretty awesome – the best tilke drome so far it would appear.
But how much of Tilke is there in that design? We know they threw his first proposal into the bin and came back with their own ideas, but to what degree they dictated the final design I'm unsure. I agree that it looks to be a wonderful circuit - perhaps minus the technical section.

ESPImperium
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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beelsebob wrote:
cossie wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:Image
i agree, hopefully they don't muck up Austin, Crap i wish Road America would up grade, and wasn't so far in the boondocks , it would be a perfect F1 track
Image
Man, that looks almost as boring as Magny Cours.

Turns 2, 4, 11 and 13 (and possibly even 7) simply wouldn't exist for an F1 car, and 5 is probably the only overtaking point on the track. Personally, I think the Austin map looks pretty awesome – the best tilke drome so far it would appear.
Have you ever raced on Road America??? I have, albeit in Forza 3 in a virtual format.

Road America would need tightened up in areas, but there is 3 bona fide overtaking zones; Turn 1, Turn 5, and Turn 12. Carrusel is like Turn 8 at Turkey, and Turn 6 is a blind left hander that goes up hill and unbalances the car.

However, if i was to want a F1 race in the USA at a current venue, id give it to either Watkins Glen or Barber Motorsports Park as they look fun and probably are fun to race on.

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mep
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Ok I try to make some comment to this topic. Actually track design can be quite interesting. I Ciro I would like to see how your ideal track design looks like. I think you are the only one who seriously thinks about the track layout from an analytical point of view. Well of course its part of your job.

One thing makes me wonder. You say a lot about snail, spiral curves ect. obviously you are very deep into the stuff because of your road design job. Actually I must admit I didn’t really understand what you meant with transition of sideslope, snail and spiral. However maybe you are a bit to deep into the stuff. I mean on a racetrack there can be a 90 sharp edged corner baaam. No transition at all. We have them in Singapur which is a quite sharp edged track but not bad because of this. Actually a sharp edged corner can be nice especially when they are consecutive. In the end the driver will make even between the sharpest edges some smooth transitions.
Image



One more point.
I have heard Tilke follows the design rule of long straights followed by hard braking and slow corners to help overtaking or bring interesting races or whatever. When I look at the Tilke tracks I see this feature. Like in Shanghai with the looong straight and the following very slow corner. It is also in the new Hockenheim layout, in Yas Marina circuit, in Malaysia we have it even two times.
I think this idea is generally wrong because those long straights are really boring. There is absolutely noting happening when you drive along those much to long straights. You just wait for next braking and wait and wait then you get action for short time and wait again while you are on next straight.

As comparison Spa also has long straights but they are never 100% straight. They are interrupted by very high speed curves which are a challenge to drive trough. Then there are curves which are not super tight but more like medium speed ones. I think current tracks are to much “stop and go”.

Also for slow curves it should be paid more attention to have transitions between curves followed to each other. Currently most curves are separated from the next one by a straight which allows the driver to ideally place the car for it without taking any compromises. I think there should be sections where curves follow each other in very short distances so that the drivers have to compromise the lines for them. It should not be possible to place the car ideally for both ones. The very old double chicane at Monza was a bit like this. You could ideally go trough the first one but then you are in a bad position for the next one. You have to already think of the second chicane when you go trough the first one.

Current tracks are a bit like this:

right straight straight straight straight straight straight straight straight straight straight braaaaaking right straight straight……


I would like them to be more like this:
Left straight right left straight straight braking left-right-chicane straight straight double right straight uphill very fast right straight braking ….

I don’t understand much about music but I think we can compare driving on a track a bit with a song. The first one above would be very boring because its always the same. Nobody would like it. The second one can have something like a rhythm. It changes, its not just boom, boom, boom. If a track designer wants to be a real artist, like some say Tilke would be, then he takes things like this into account. There must be a natural flow when driving round a circuit. Left right left right… You start to feel and stop thinking. Also it must be possible to have alternative lines trough the combination of corners. The driver with the best feeling will get the shortest time, like a dancer. On most current tracks you wont get this because the straights hack the sections into parts. Monaco is a bit different in this context. It is a very nice flowing track also some parts of Hungary. It’s not that I don’t like straights. I also like Monza and the old Hocken layout very much but those tracks where special because the focus is on pure top speed. They had their own character which is easy to discover. This like the flow and the character of a track might be more important than specific attributes of curves circular, spiral or sharp edged transition.

Belatti
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Nice concepts mep.

Any old school Grand Prix racer here? I recall playing a fictional track called Bern - Grauholz, maybe 10 years ago.

Man, THAT would fix a Tilkedrome!
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Caito
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Belatti wrote:Nice concepts mep.

Any old school Grand Prix racer here? I recall playing a fictional track called Bern - Grauholz, maybe 10 years ago.

Man, THAT would fix a Tilkedrome!
Image


Available for GP3 too.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

beelsebob
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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ESPImperium wrote:Have you ever raced on Road America??? I have, albeit in Forza 3 in a virtual format.

Road America would need tightened up in areas, but there is 3 bona fide overtaking zones; Turn 1, Turn 5, and Turn 12. Carrusel is like Turn 8 at Turkey, and Turn 6 is a blind left hander that goes up hill and unbalances the car.

However, if i was to want a F1 race in the USA at a current venue, id give it to either Watkins Glen or Barber Motorsports Park as they look fun and probably are fun to race on.
Notably though, Forza doesn't simulate F1 cars. Turn 12 has a left hander immediately after in which you'd get re-passed in F1 after you had to sacrifice your line to pass. Turn 1 I also don't believe is tight enough to get a long enough breaking zone to pass in an F1 car.
Last edited by beelsebob on 28 Apr 2011, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

beelsebob
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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Uhhh, fail, not enough coffee yet this morning.

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Pandamasque
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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beelsebob wrote:
cossie wrote: i agree, hopefully they don't muck up Austin, Crap i wish Road America would up grade, and wasn't so far in the boondocks , it would be a perfect F1 track
Image
Man, that looks almost as boring as Magny Cours.

Turns 2, 4, 11 and 13 (and possibly even 7) simply wouldn't exist for an F1 car, and 5 is probably the only overtaking point on the track.
You forget that real racing circuits are 9000 light years narrower than what Tilke builds. The diagram will tell you nothing, so look at this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbaLnFOYbi4[/youtube]
Possible overtaking points would be T1, T3, T5 and of course T12.
I guess T7 may be flat or not depending on the fuel load and tyre condition.
Turns 2 and 4 wouldn't exist in anything including a NASCAR Truck. Not sure they bothered to mark those a turns at all.

Belatti
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Re: How to fix a Tilkedrome

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A magnificent track, I wish we could see an F1 car there, even if it doesnt comply with any of the boring safety FIA norms.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna