Williams/Virgin behind EBD off throttle ban.

[andrew]

Andrew

Please can you keep it on topic rather than being a pedantic ass about this?
Of course you meant the paint job, of course there are 2 silver teams.

Let me paint you a picture.

When refering to a "silver team" that is manufaturer backed, there is Mercedes GP.
McLaren will be hit badly by the EBD ban, as they have a mahoosive diffuser.
I will refer you to scarbs website that will explain the pertinance.

With that in mind, it couldnt be Mclaren. Hence the EDUCATED assumption you meant Mercedes. Because if you didnt, then you are saying Mclaren wanted their advantage banned....stupid in anyones book I'm sure you would agree.

And with Mercedes having a low mid section exhaust blowing the top of the floor, in theory, could have an advantage by the EBD being banned.
However, this would mean that Mercedes HPE would have shot both Force India, and Mclaren in the foot. In addition to literally burning millions in development to get the ban.
Further to this, it is an open secret Mercedes have their own FEE in the works, as prescribed by Autosport, scarbs, James Allen, AMuS and F1 fanatic.

So far down the road to only get a ban now? Far too elaborate, unsubstantiated unproven dross.

Relax, I have been on topic all through this thread.

McLaren may have a working EBD but they have also been very vocal on Red Bull's advantage, as have Ferrari. Both of these teams would have enough clout to bend the ear of the FIA especially with Whitmarsh being the head of FOTA.

I don't believe that Mercedes were instrumental in this ruling for the reasons that you have stated, hwever I also don't believe that Williams have enough clout these days and Virgin just never had any.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I dont think this has anything to do with clout Andrew.

More in the sense that Williams and Virgin asked for a "clarification" in the rules.

The engine when overrunning will use more fuel, it will also wear alot more. Cosworth may have not been in a position to change the spec of the engine to cope with the demands of EBD. Wether that be technical or financial.

Rather ask for a "clarification"(such a diplomatic term) than spend wheelbarrow loads of cash developing your own EBD. I sure as hell know neither the parties in question are flush with cash to burn on exhaust development.

For me its pretty straightforward. But Im willing to cede it may give non RB teams an advantage.

[marcush.]

the engine is only allowed to use for propelling the car through the transmission .So this is not a grey area as soon as you put in fuel in overrun condition you certainly use the engine for something else.

[Pup]

Xceeds even Chris Sylt...?

Never!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Xceeds even Chris Sylt...?

Never!

Seen Chris Sylt's new piece as quoted by the Beeb? Lord knows who passed it as credible to be published.....

Latest from this.....

"A ban ... would have affected us less than the leading teams because we ... are quite a long way behind on the engine mapping side," Virgin team boss John Booth admitted to Reuters.

[BreezyRacer]

Could this whole incident frame just how badly the FIA feels they need an independent engine supplier in F1?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Could this whole incident frame just how badly the FIA feels they need an independent engine supplier in F1?

My sentiments exactly. Especially now it's concorde agreement time.....

[xpensive]

So as we can establish where the battle lines where drawn.

Sigh...have you already started your weekend JET?

Fact remains that someone with enough weight talked the FIA into banning the EBD with three days notice and I don't need no crystal ball to predict that it wasn't Virgin or Williams. Decision was later overturned but that is beside the point.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Do you have a source X? Other than your point of view, or opinion because it seems you are making 100 from 2 and 2.

I see no logic in what you are putting forward either.

Mercedes spending millions and slap bang in the middle of developing an FEE and they ask for a clarification? Please!

Rather 2 teams with Cosworth powerplants(Virgin and Williams) who are disadvantaged by not being manufaturer backed in the exhaust arms race, have gone cap in hand to the FIA, who are in midst of negotiating a new concorde agreement.
You think the FIA are going to shut the door on Williams, the first team to break ranks with FOTA in the FIA v FOTA war? A grave oversight there on your part.

Or the fact that should all the manufacturers decide to play hard ball, the FIA have Cosworth to fall back on. Yet another grave oversight.

You totally ignored the background politics of this, so I would say look into your crystal ball and see this for what it is....political manouvering by the FIA in the run up to important contractual negotiations.

[xpensive]

What is this constant whining about "source", some people actually have a mind of their own to form an opinion, not dependant on what is written in their favourite magazine or what suits their favourite team's position for that matter.

The scenario you are painting would have been plausible during MrM's reign, just to f**k with FOTA, but for Jean Todt to make such a dramatic call to the benefit of Cosworth, which are not likely to be around after 2012 anyway, seems highly unlikely.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As unlikely as Mercedes burning the midnight oil at Brackley, working on all manner of exhausts and parts for Mercedes and Mclaren AND as Mclaren are about to implement their "octopus" arrangement, and Mercedes their own FEE(huge potential bearing in mind their current arrangement) they suddenly ask for clarification?

It makes no sense, goes against what the bean counters at Stuttgart would say, and would stitch their own teams developments up.

Cosworth powered teams stand the most to gain, that is certain. Mercedes powered teams would see alot of development time and money wasted...Go figure.

[Rob01]

Yes JET it wasn't Merc or Mcl. They asked for clairification last year. They moved forward with spending a bunch of money on the new system once they realized that FIA would do nothing about it. Williams has aided Bernie and Max for the last many years. this is no more than a small team being helped by FIA and Bernie to divide and conquer FOTA before the new concorde. For sure it will cause issues amongst the teams that have spent a fortune developing the new systems to catch the Bulls.

[xpensive]

Mercedes xhaust is still rudimentary in comparison, it can actually happen during development that you get desperate and just throw your hands in the air. Besides, it is not always obvious that everyone in an organization is on the same page.

2/3 of the Cosworth powered teams are so hopelessly behind that EBD or not for the top teams simply doesn't matter one iota to them. The remaining 1/3 is rumoured to be planning to have Renaults for 2012, go figure yourself.

Asking for clarification, anyone can do that, but to get a ban three days before the next race?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yea.... Mercedes just threw their hands up in the air and quit.

Where is the precedent X? Name one occasion Mercedes have been disadvanted and asked for clarification that has been passed to satisy their request.

You cant.

As such you are speculating on something that has no precedent. Paranoia is another word that has been used to describe such instances....

[xpensive]

...
As such you are speculating on something that has no precedent. Paranoia is another word that has been used to describe such instances....

And here comes the insults, it is not very becoming you know.

Judging from pictures taken, the W02 is no way near an EBD and how can you possibly know they are even working on one?

The official ambition of Mercedes GP was to fight for wins this year, which is clearly not going to happen. I know from xperience from other areas that under such pressure, normally decent people can feel compelled to do the strangest things.