Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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That is a very good point.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Hangaku wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Throttle is easy to scale, it's known that it will be 0-100%. Brake pressure on the other hand can be... whatever. Easier to do with an on/off switch and display.
I don't understand this vague "explanation" at all.
Vaguer explanation
Image

Now, the top extreme most hypervaguest explanation in the world, just for you.

The truth, dear Hangaku is that the amount of movement of the brake pedal varies, not only from person to person, but from race to race and even from the start to the end, at least with the cars I drive. You probably can feel the same next time you race for over 200 km or so. At the start a slight movement engages full brake, at the end you move a lot.

As I try to accelerate and brake with my toes and not with my feet I might exaggerate on the ability you might have developed. Any way, try it also: it gives you a true feeling of the amount of movement, specially if you choose a particular place on the floor to put your heel. You'll notice, you'll notice, trust me.

I want to explain, out of thread but before everybody and his dog mocks me, that I use the toes when I really need to "feather" the thing and mostly the gas pedal: after all you don't push the brake pedal, you kick it, specially in high power cars!

...and that's another explanation, btw, if you follow my drift: those brakes are hard, man! I swear to heaven that you'll think to yourself "Darn, how could I ask that" the first time you have to push that kind of brake pedals. Have you ever driven an old american car with the drum brakes wet? Same thing happens with the cars with wide tyres: brakes are for machos.

I swear on the sacred soul of Nuvolari that if you only press the pedal then you're doing it wrong. A race car goes from full throttle to full brake and there is nothing in between. You might feather the throttle, but the brake? Please, go and take again the race driver course, I beg you. It will do good. You only feather the brake to "settle the rear" (or whatever is the barbaric expression English speakers use for it).

Anyway, I continue with the TRUE reason.

As the only way to give you 0-100 is by some kind of variable resistor (or whatever has taken its place in the digital era) and the amount of movement of the pedal varies, well... comprende, amigo? At the start of the race (measuring the movement of the pedal) you'd see 80% and at the end you'd see 100%, even if you make the same pressure, because the pedal moves more.

Now you'll tell me they can use a load cell.... Yeah, sure. Why not? And why do not we measure the force on the steering wheel for the public? C'mon, my grandma also watched the races (and that's another reason: DO NOT COMPLICATE a picture if you want 50% of the people to get the true meaning of it).

This explain why brake lights have a simple on/off switch from the simplest bicycle to the most complex Airbus since dogs, trees and brake lights were invented.

This time you could tell me you haven't seen the Airbus brake lights... so, next time you go to an airport check them out. Very cool. If you still don't see them, go to the VIP section, ask for some rum and recheck. You'll see them eventually.

So, to recapitulate, too much variation in movement, load cells are expensive and you want to keep the semantics to the level of my grandma. Now do you get it? If you still don't recheck the previous picture.

BTW, JTom is never vague, always laconic. So, it's your fault, not his.

Me, on the other hand... I delight in vagueness, I bath in circumlocutions and I perfume myself with hyperboles, so, this time it is my fault, not yours.

Finally, your refusal to understand (because it is clear you are refusing, you understand all this very well) takes me to wonder if the people that manages the telemetry are not leaving a pretty interesting market out of the picture. They could sell (at least to you) the most complicated TV image in the world, with icons for every bit and piece of the car. Couldn't they? C'mon, tell me the truth, we're among men. What you want is the darn thing to show when the driver farts, don't you? I confess I do too. My name is Ciro and I'm an F1 fanboy... (chorus: "Good evening, Ciro").

Now, your turn, Hangaku. Say hello to the FBA members (Fan Boy Anonymous).
Ciro

Caito
Caito
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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It would be worth comparing braking torque. Not pressure, not force not anything, but it's too complicated.

If a cars has new tires it won't brake the same as old tires. You can't compare.


Besides, you have a good ol' mighty "G-meter". Watch there and you'll know how much he brakes. Or at least there used to be one.


In moto gp they have a brake bar, and also the new gyroscopic camera that stays upright when the bike tilts.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

DaveKillens
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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There has to be some simple on/off switch indication when the driver presses on the brake pedal. The correct and safe function of the DRS mandates something this simple.

My guess is that when telemetry is being fed to the TV networks, this is what channel the teams choose to show. It's simple, and for most of the masses, good enough. I also suspect teams don't want everyone to know what pedal forces are going on under braking.. it may give away relevant info to a competitor.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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Hangaku
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009, 16:38
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Ciro Pabón wrote:... something
I won't even entertain this patronizing nonsense. Quite frankly it wasn't called for, so get off your soapbox, and chill out.
Yer.

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SiLo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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I'm assuming you simply meant: Why does the Telemetary show the driver slamming the brake pedal to the floor everytime he brakes? And not slowly applying pressure or just easing it a bit to alter how the car handles.

For now, we will just have to make do with what they give us on the TV. I usually dont pay attention to the braking, apart from where it starts, but more how early and how hard they can get on the throttle. But thats just me :)
Felipe Baby!

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Jeffsvilleusa
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDRGNnT ... 3&index=13[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgB4a2eN1Qs[/youtube]

It looks like there was once a 'braking cam'.

It also seems there is an inherent logic to the current 'on/off' scheme.

I assume braking is part of car telemetry and therefore can be quantified on a graph, which being the case could be translated as a TV graphic, but also not all telemetry is available for all to see.

But aren't these videos cool? :mrgreen:
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timbo
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Seems like a traditional subject that reappears every 2-3 years.

As for more realistic reading of braking action — it can be done. At least on monoseries. Watch from 0:54

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TAA0FDQ ... page#t=57s[/youtube]

hollowBallistix
hollowBallistix
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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ah no point, someone else posted what I said....must make sure I read all the pages before I post ! :lol:

volarchico
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Hangaku wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:... something
I won't even entertain this patronizing nonsense. Quite frankly it wasn't called for, so get off your soapbox, and chill out.
I thought it was pretty descriptive and enlightening, in an odd, quirky sort of way. He at least spent some time to describe the issue and explain his views.

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Jeffsvilleusa
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Hangaku wrote:Sure I understand all of this, but brake pressure for each car has to be measured somehow, if it's with bars of pressure or bars of chocolate it doesn't matter, it's still a certain percentage of the maximum achievable pressure. Sure, that's a variable, but you would expect it to be available to the guys that do the race overlays.
As much as I was hoping for bars of chocolate, it turns out it's measured in Newtons!

From an interview with Mercedes on F1 website:http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/6/12143.html
Q: How hard are the drivers working in the cockpit under braking?
A:
The force the drivers exert on the pedal is approximately 2000 Newtons - that's equivalent to lifting 200 kilogrammes. The theoretical stopping distance of a Formula One car from 300 km/h to zero is approximately 135 metres in a straight line, but varies according to drag levels and tyre grip.
Perhaps he meant Fig Newtons?
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Caito
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Jeffsvilleusa wrote:
Hangaku wrote:Sure I understand all of this, but brake pressure for each car has to be measured somehow, if it's with bars of pressure or bars of chocolate it doesn't matter, it's still a certain percentage of the maximum achievable pressure. Sure, that's a variable, but you would expect it to be available to the guys that do the race overlays.
As much as I was hoping for bars of chocolate, it turns out it's measured in Newtons!

From an interview with Mercedes on F1 website:http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/6/12143.html
Q: How hard are the drivers working in the cockpit under braking?
A:
The force the drivers exert on the pedal is approximately 2000 Newtons - that's equivalent to lifting 200 kilogrammes. The theoretical stopping distance of a Formula One car from 300 km/h to zero is approximately 135 metres in a straight line, but varies according to drag levels and tyre grip.
Perhaps he meant Fig Newtons?
He was talking of brake pressure and you quote newtons, which is force. What you get there is pedal force, which makes no sense to compare.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

beelsebob
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Caito wrote:He was talking of brake pressure and you quote newtons, which is force. What you get there is pedal force, which makes no sense to compare.
It kinda does actually... Okay it doesn't really tell you how much the car is slowing down, but it does tell you how much the driver is requesting it to slow down. In the same way as the throttle pedal position doesn't actually tell you how high the engine is revving – it tells you how much the driver is asking for go-faster.

Caito
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Still, throttle pedal is 0-100%. Brake pedal doesnt. You don't even know if its a linear rate, so can't tell actually. That's my point, at least.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Braking telemetry during F1 broadcasts

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Hangaku wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:... something
I won't even entertain this patronizing nonsense. Quite frankly it wasn't called for, so get off your soapbox, and chill out.
Sorry, master. I wait for your call.
Ciro