Who wins and who loses in the EBD ban.

[Pierce89]

Ferraripilot

I want to speculate but I just got told off for that from a mod. A ban will be placed if I do, so from now I will only post facts. I do wonder wether the mods will apply that same yardstick to everyone however. Oh dear Im off topic...ban looms!

The mods have gotten a bit touchy lately. Oh and Red Bull loses from the EBD ban but only in quali.

[Pierce89]

I'll miss the raspy over-run

[SiLo]

Could this piss off Montezemolo enough to start another race series?

The small teams might say that it's expensive to research and develop, but the other teams have already spent that money on it because they thought it would be legal.

If they all had it at the same time, none of this would be happening.

[ESPImperium]

It will benifit the cosworth powered teams no doubt, but will it make Williams/Virgin/Hispania any more compeditive? I doubt it.

Williams are running with a piss poor chassis to their standards.
Virgin will only gain about half a second to Team Lotus.
Hispania will gain a simmilar ammount to Team Lotus.

All it will do is bunch the cars up more, bring into play the Mercedes cars as they havnt got a EBD in the extremes that the other top teams have, Renault are in a simmilar boat, but it could mean they could run with out the FEE as it would only be good when the engine in under throttle control.

The only thing is of a team uses a EOM with the EBD, thats what could be the thing that the Cossie teams could protest about, whitch would mean that the FIA will have to go to each team and actually have a look at their data, whitch will take a pretty long period of time, not to mention the fact that the teams wouldnt want the FIA looking at their data as there may be other things that they see on that data.

What i feel will happen is that the loophole in the diffuser will be closed off at the nect Technichal Working Group, as well as engine over run mappings to be banned for 2012.

[Mandrake]

The sport loses most. One more thing being restricted, killing innovation and technical refinements. One step closer to a spec series we are again.

Ohh and don't start to think we'll see more overtakings due to missing EBD and struggling under braking, that just won't happen imo, or it's the same for all!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The sport loses most. One more thing being restricted, killing innovation and technical refinements. One step closer to a spec series we are again.

Ohh and don't start to think we'll see more overtakings due to missing EBD and struggling under braking, that just won't happen imo, or it's the same for all!

But wont it unsettle the cars more not having the technology, thereby increasing the chance of driver error in corners?

[Mandrake]

Theoretically yes, but it's not like there are monkeys driving at the top of the grid. Even under pressure the top guys almost never lock up or kiss corners nowadays. As long as it doesn't become highly unpredictable I doubt we'll see huge errors at the front of the grid.

[i70q7m7ghw]

The sport loses most. One more thing being restricted, killing innovation and technical refinements. One step closer to a spec series we are again.

Ohh and don't start to think we'll see more overtakings due to missing EBD and struggling under braking, that just won't happen imo, or it's the same for all!

But wont it unsettle the cars more not having the technology, thereby increasing the chance of driver error in corners?

The same thing was said when TC was banned. Didn't really change very much.

Mandrake, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. They aren't banning EBDs, not at all. All that is being discussed is hot blowing of the diffuser when off trottle using retarded ignition. Teams are putting fuel through the engine and burning it in the exhuast for the sole purpose of creating downforce.

Taking the otherwise useless exhuast flow and using it to make the aerodynamics of the car mor efficient is fine. But creating additional exhaust flow on purpose, that is borderline moveable aerodynamics. You could almost consider it a driver aid, Active Downforce?

[donskar]

The sport loses most. One more thing being restricted, killing innovation and technical refinements. One step closer to a spec series we are again.

Ohh and don't start to think we'll see more overtakings due to missing EBD and struggling under braking, that just won't happen imo, or it's the same for all!

Mandrake, you're playing my tune. With this EBD affair we move ever closer to a spec series. And the resource restriction can be used to stifle changes even more. Let's see if this makes sense: a team has a fixed budget of $X. If it invests a sum of money in something new, it could lose that investment if its innovation is subsequently banned. And it can not simply spend more money to make up for its lost performance in some other way. In the case of the EBD, several teams spent the resources to implement it, and it worked. EBD was not banned until after several teams had committed the resources and had raced it successfully several times. How does the EBD scenario impact future forward thinking? It stifles it. See the next generation of Indy cars for a peek at the future of F1.

[Muulka]

The sport loses most. One more thing being restricted, killing innovation and technical refinements. One step closer to a spec series we are again.

Ohh and don't start to think we'll see more overtakings due to missing EBD and struggling under braking, that just won't happen imo, or it's the same for all!

Mandrake, you're playing my tune. With this EBD affair we move ever closer to a spec series. And the resource restriction can be used to stifle changes even more. Let's see if this makes sense: a team has a fixed budget of $X. If it invests a sum of money in something new, it could lose that investment if its innovation is subsequently banned. And it can not simply spend more money to make up for its lost performance in some other way. In the case of the EBD, several teams spent the resources to implement it, and it worked. EBD was not banned until after several teams had committed the resources and had raced it successfully several times. How does the EBD scenario impact future forward thinking? It stifles it. See the next generation of Indy cars for a peek at the future of F1.

You could say the same about William's big fins on the head protection in 2009, or the Mass Damper, or the hideous wings on pillars on the sidepods, or anything else that's been banned in-season before.

I haven't heard any complaints about the Ferrari rear wing at Barcelona...

[i70q7m7ghw]

EBD is NOT being banned! It's only the engine maps that purposefully burn additional fuel that are in question!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Sure but the low end effiecency of the system would be greatly reduced.

I Guess its pretty clear Cosworth gain from an "off throttle" EBD ban, but how it shakes up the top teams will be fascinating.

[thisisatest]

what about moving the control to a different part? clutches are electronically controlled no matter what right now, right?
so a driver goes off throttle, instead of retarding ignition, the clutch is depressed, the gas stays down, you bounce on the limiter, but exhaust gases still flow.
you'd have to work out the lack of engine braking, transitions from off-throttle to back on, but that's what those engineers' big brains are for, right?

just a thought. feel free to tear into it.

personally, i can't believe they are even considering banning this ebd/ engine mapping. anything and everything could technically be construed as moveable aero. like the throttle.

[Fil]

what about moving the control to a different part? clutches are electronically controlled no matter what right now, right?
so a driver goes off throttle, instead of retarding ignition, the clutch is depressed, the gas stays down, you bounce on the limiter, but exhaust gases still flow.

just a thought. feel free to tear into it.

You tore into it yourself!

anything and everything could technically be construed as moveable aero. like the throttle..

..or the clutch.

As precedent shows, if a moveable part serves to effect the aerodynamics of the vehicle (unless specifically excluded - ie. DRS), it can be banned.

Yep, anything and everything.



The question that really needs to be answered is, if scrutineers & the FIA have deemed it legal for so long over 2 seasons, should it be right to be able to ban it so suddenly? Again, precedent tends to say yes. Unfortunately.

[Mandrake]

The same thing was said when TC was banned. Didn't really change very much.

Mandrake, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. They aren't banning EBDs, not at all. All that is being discussed is hot blowing of the diffuser when off trottle using retarded ignition. Teams are putting fuel through the engine and burning it in the exhuast for the sole purpose of creating downforce.

Taking the otherwise useless exhuast flow and using it to make the aerodynamics of the car mor efficient is fine. But creating additional exhaust flow on purpose, that is borderline moveable aerodynamics. You could almost consider it a driver aid, Active Downforce?

I was typing this from my cellphone I was of course talking about the banning of off power blowing.

Lack of off power blowing leads to decreased efficiency and varying levels of df, but it won't make cars undrivable. You've basically said the same with your TC example