Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andartop wrote:I tried to find sector times but couldn't. It didn't seem to me from the BBC broadcast that Massa actually blocked Hamilton, but could have distracted him, as is often the case in Monaco. Given the limited track width and layout, I thought Massa got out of the way as soon as he could. If anyone has the data to demonstrate Hamilton was actually blocked please post it...
Nah, distraction wouldn't have caused a sector time 0.7 slower. Massa could have just stuck right out of the pits and kept the throttle down.

andartop
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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Could you post a link for the sector times? I couldn't find one..
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andartop wrote:Could you post a link for the sector times? I couldn't find one..
No link – just watched Qually – Hamilton's first sector was 0.75 down on Vettel's, and based on that, 0.6 down on his own previous best.

andrew
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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Gerhard Berger wrote:He only did 1 complete flying lap as far as i can remember. He couldn't complete his other one because of the red flag. All his other laps were in laps/out laps. Do correct me if i'm wrong though.
I was sure that he set a time before the red flag and then another after the red flag. Maybe not.


Either way he got to Q3, set a fast time and was subsequently demoted. As he still set a fast time then he should be starting on the same tyres.

beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andrew wrote:
Gerhard Berger wrote:He only did 1 complete flying lap as far as i can remember. He couldn't complete his other one because of the red flag. All his other laps were in laps/out laps. Do correct me if i'm wrong though.
I was sure that he set a time before the red flag and then another after the red flag. Maybe not.


Either way he got to Q3, set a fast time and was subsequently demoted. As he still set a fast time then he should be starting on the same tyres.
The rule doesn't specify "fastest" time, it specifies "grid" time – my interpretation of that would be that he is 9th because he did not set a grid time, and thus doesn't need to use any particular tyres:
Sporting regs wrote:25.4 d) At the start of the race each car which took part in Q3 must be fitted with the tyres with which the driver set his grid time. This will only be necessary if dry-weather tyres were used to set the grid time and if dry-weather are used at the start of the race.
Last edited by beelsebob on 28 May 2011, 23:48, edited 1 time in total.

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ringo
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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Hamilton has a choice of tyre. He has no recorded lap.

All this mess could turn to a good finish for him. 9th position isn't so bad with a fast car and a tyre choice.
He has to make the tyres work for him when the others pit to change their super softs.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andrew wrote:
Gerhard Berger wrote:He only did 1 complete flying lap as far as i can remember. He couldn't complete his other one because of the red flag. All his other laps were in laps/out laps. Do correct me if i'm wrong though.
I was sure that he set a time before the red flag and then another after the red flag. Maybe not.


Either way he got to Q3, set a fast time and was subsequently demoted. As he still set a fast time then he should be starting on the same tyres.
[...] Hamilton gets away unscathed with a tyre choice and a decent strategy.

Don't worry, he'll blow past shumacher like he did in china last year. :wink:
Last edited by Steven on 29 May 2011, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed trolling
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andrew
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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beelsebob wrote:The rule doesn't specify "fastest" time, it specifies "grid" time – my interpretation of that would be that he is 9th because he did not set a grid time, and thus doesn't need to use any particular tyres:
He did set a grid time (7th), but because he jumped a chicane he has been penalised and demoted. If the race stewards have any sence then they will make him start on the same tyres, otherwise it is a bit of a toothless penalty.

The rule you quote makes no reference to penalties. There must be a rule that covers this enventuality?

beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andrew wrote:
beelsebob wrote:The rule doesn't specify "fastest" time, it specifies "grid" time – my interpretation of that would be that he is 9th because he did not set a grid time, and thus doesn't need to use any particular tyres:
He did set a grid time (7th), but because he jumped a chicane he has been penalised and demoted.
He wasn't demoted, he had his time deleted.
If the race stewards have any sence then they will make him start on the same tyres, otherwise it is a bit of a toothless penalty.
Hmm? Making it as if he didn't set the lap at all is toothless? O.o
The rule you quote makes no reference to penalties. There must be a rule that covers this enventuality?
Not about tyres as far as I can tell... The only stuff about the grid and penalties/lap deletions is...
36.2 b) If more than one driver fails to set a time during Q1, Q2 or Q3 they will be arranged in the following order:
i) any driver who attempted to set a qualifying time by starting a flying lap;
ii) any driver who failed to start a flying lap;
iii) any driver who failed to leave the pits during the period.
c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were committed. If more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 28.4a) or Article 28.6a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical delegate that an engine or gearbox change will be carried out.
d) Any driver who incurs a penalty under Article 28.4(a) will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying times have been deleted for any reason.
If more than one driver falls into a single category in b) or d) above they will be arranged on the grid in numerical order.
Given that was stated that Hamilton had his lap deleted, rather than having a penalty, it's very clear that he didn't set any grid lap. I don't think any extra rule is necessary.

beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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An expansion on the o.O about toothlessness...

Imagine if Vettel had set two fast laps, and on the faster of them cut the chicane... Would you expect him to
a) Get a 2/5 place grid drop.
b) Simply have the faster time ignored, and the second time counted.

If you answered (a), why? It's not like he would have intentionally cut the chicane going "he he he, no one will ever notice this, and I'll scam my way into pole"... He simply made a mistake on that lap.

andrew
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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beelsebob wrote:Hmm? Making it as if he didn't set the lap at all is toothless? O.o
He has only gone from 7th to 10th and will possibly have better tyre options. Doesn't seem like much of a penalty as he looks like starting on fresh rubber.

Probably best to wait and see what transpires tomorrow rather than speculating.
beelsebob wrote:An expansion on the o.O about toothlessness...
No one is saying it was intentional, but the rules are very clear on cutting chicanes.

The scenario you present is completely different though. You are assuming Vettel had set 2 fastest laps, so his fastest is disallowed, but still has a qualifying time to fall back on. Hamilton only set 1 so had no fall back.

beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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andrew wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Hmm? Making it as if he didn't set the lap at all is toothless? O.o
He has only gone from 7th to 10th and will possibly have better tyre options. Doesn't seem like much of a penalty as he looks like starting on fresh rubber.

Probably best to wait and see what transpires tomorrow rather than speculating.
But again – he wasn't penalised, because he made no deliberate breach of the rules – he simply had the lap on which he slipped up deleted.
beelsebob wrote:An expansion on the o.O about toothlessness...
No one is saying it was intentional, but the rules are very clear on cutting chicanes.

The scenario you present is completely different though. You are assuming Vettel had set 2 fastest laps, so his fastest is disallowed, but still has a qualifying time to fall back on. Hamilton only set 1 so had no fall back.
It's in no way different – in both cases, it concerns an accidental slip, and in both cases it concerns whether the stewards/rules should cause the lap to be ignored, or a penalty to be issued. I believe in these circumstances the rules state that the lap should simply be deleted. The stewards seem to agree, as this is what they've done.

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ringo
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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Looking back on it did hamilton set a time when he was blocked by massa?

In that case he would have to start on the tyre. I guess we will see tomorrow.
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beelsebob
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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ringo wrote:Looking back on it did hamilton set a time when he was blocked by massa?

In that case he would have to start on the tyre. I guess we will see tomorrow.
I'm certain he didn't – I can remember sitting staring at the timing screen after Perez's crash, with two blank rows at the bottom – Hamilton and Perez.

Richard
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Re: Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

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Hamilton hasn't been given a grid penalty, he simply failed to record a valid lap time.

First attempt was a red flag so the clock stopped as soon as the red flag is shown. The second attempt was null due to cutting the chicane.

We've seen this scenario before. I recall a race in 10 or 11 where the red flag was shown 1:30 before the end, so drivers had to abort flying laps and then didn't have enough time to do their out lap at the restart.