Monaco GP 2011 - Monte Carlo

[andrew]

But again – he wasn't penalised, because he made no deliberate breach of the rules – he simply had the lap on which he slipped up deleted.

Again, no one is saying it was deliberate, however whether it was accidental or otherwise is totally irrelevant. Hamilton’s fastest time was set during a lap where he gained an advantage by leaving the track. This is black and white to me.

It's in no way different – in both cases, it concerns an accidental slip, and in both cases it concerns whether the stewards/rules should cause the lap to be ignored, or a penalty to be issued. I believe in these circumstances the rules state that the lap should simply be deleted. The stewards seem to agree, as this is what they've done.

I’m not disagreeing with the demotion down the grid at all as it is the correct action, however if Hamilton starts on new tyres it is an advantage over those starting on used tyres. Hamilton doesn’t have new tyres because he chose not to go out, but because his time was disallowed. Do you not see how, for any driver (be it Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Massa etc etc) in this position that the severity of the penalty is watered down by the driver having the option of new tyres? If McLaren play their cards right and don't screw-up the race strategy then this could actually work out quite well for them.

[Just_a_fan]

Such a stupid decision by the Lewis side of the McLaren garage.

They have thrown away a great chance of 25 points and instead replaced it with a very likely DNF.

Correct me if I am wrong as this is the 1st I have heard of Hamiltons penalty, but is this not for cutting a chicane? Can't really see how the blame can be put to the team. It is the drivers fault, simple as that.

The cutting of the chicane was only a problem because he didn't have time for another lap. Had he then gone on to do another, faster, lap the "chicane lap" wouldn't matter.

Nice attempt at having a dig at Hamilton though...

[beelsebob]

But again – he wasn't penalised, because he made no deliberate breach of the rules – he simply had the lap on which he slipped up deleted.

Again, no one is saying it was deliberate, however whether it was accidental or otherwise is totally irrelevant. Hamilton’s fastest time was set during a lap where he gained an advantage by leaving the track. This is black and white to me.

Yes, and the standard way of dealing with such a scenario in qualifying is to ignore the lap with regards to forming the grid.

I’m not disagreeing with the demotion down the grid at all as it is the correct action, however if Hamilton starts on new tyres it is an advantage over those starting on used tyres. Hamilton doesn’t have new tyres because he chose not to go out, but because his time was disallowed. Do you not see how, for any driver (be it Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Massa etc etc) in this position that the severity of the penalty is watered down by the driver having the option of new tyres? If McLaren play their cards right and don't screw-up the race strategy then this could actually work out quite well for them.

Again – he didn't get penalised, he didn't get demoted. He had his fast lap ignored.

[andrew]

The cutting of the chicane was only a problem because he didn't have time for another lap. Had he then gone on to do another, faster, lap the "chicane lap" wouldn't matter.

Nice attempt at having a dig at Hamilton though...

No one is having an attempt at having a dig. I'm just stating an opinion on what I saw. If you don't like it, well.......

To put it simply he should not have screwed up. The driver is in control of the car's direction and speed, not the team.

[beelsebob]

The cutting of the chicane was only a problem because he didn't have time for another lap. Had he then gone on to do another, faster, lap the "chicane lap" wouldn't matter.

Nice attempt at having a dig at Hamilton though...

No one is having an attempt at having a dig. I'm just stating an opinion on what I saw. If you don't like it, well.......

To put it simply he should not have screwed up. The driver is in control of the car's direction and speed, not the team.

Agreed, it's absolutely Hamilton's fault that he's starting 9 places behind where he should be if he'd not noobed up.

[Richard]

if Hamilton starts on new tyres it is an advantage over those starting on used tyres

The record show that he didn't set a lap time in Q3. The reason makes no difference, whether it is a crash, cutting a chicane, red flag, engine failure, act of God, having an ice cream or having a s**t.

No time in Q3 means you haven't set a lap on a set of tyres, hence you choose your own tyres.

[Just_a_fan]

But again – he wasn't penalised, because he made no deliberate breach of the rules – he simply had the lap on which he slipped up deleted.

Again, no one is saying it was deliberate, however whether it was accidental or otherwise is totally irrelevant. Hamilton’s fastest time was set during a lap where he gained an advantage by leaving the track. This is black and white to me.

The rules agree that cutting the chicane constitutes an advantage and they also say that any driver doing so will have his time deleted i.e. no time set for that lap. That's a fair penalty, I'm sure you'll agree.

Hamilton had his first timed lap aborted by the red flag. So he set no time on the first attempt. (One can argue that the red flag protected Massa here because his blocking didn't damage another competitor's attempt at setting a time.)

Now, because his first time was nulled by the red flag and his second deleted by the stewards, he has no recorded time.

No recorded time means choice of tyres. It's a loop hole created by the way the rules are written. Much like Ferrari getting away with illegal barge boards and and Brawn getting away with a double diffuser. The rules mean one thing but say something else. That's the way laws work and that's why some people make a lot of money arguing the toss about that the law says rather than what it means.

[beelsebob]

Again – he didn't get penalised, he didn't get demoted. He had his fast lap ignored.

Right so having your grid time deleted and being out back a few grid slots is not a penalty? Right.......

I've had a look to see the correct definition of "penalty". Definitions 1 and4 seem pretty good, no?

–noun, plural -ties.
1. a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2. a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3. something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4. a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

Penalty in the Formula 1 rules has a much more specific meaning. Namely:

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) A time penalty.
d) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
e) A reprimand.
f) Exclusion from the results.
g) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.

Hamilton was given none of these – he simply had his fast lap removed from the results, as would any other driver had they done the same thing in qualifying.

[beelsebob]

But again – he wasn't penalised, because he made no deliberate breach of the rules – he simply had the lap on which he slipped up deleted.

Again, no one is saying it was deliberate, however whether it was accidental or otherwise is totally irrelevant. Hamilton’s fastest time was set during a lap where he gained an advantage by leaving the track. This is black and white to me.

The rules agree that cutting the chicane constitutes an advantage and they also say that any driver doing so will have his time deleted i.e. no time set for that lap. That's a fair penalty, I'm sure you'll agree.

Hamilton had his first timed lap aborted by the red flag. So he set no time on the first attempt. (One can argue that the red flag protected Massa here because his blocking didn't damage another competitor's attempt at setting a time.)

Now, because his first time was nulled by the red flag and his second deleted by the stewards, he has no recorded time.

No recorded time means choice of tyres. It's a loop hole created by the way the rules are written. Much like Ferrari getting away with illegal barge boards and and Brawn getting away with a double diffuser. The rules mean one thing but say something else. That's the way laws work and that's why some people make a lot of money arguing the toss about that the law says rather than what it means.

I don't think there's any conflict between the intended and actual meaning of the rules here – starting from 10th instead of 7th is already a severe penalty, whether you're on different tyres or not. If he'd set a time worth of P10, and then had his lap deleted he would have had even less of an issue. If he'd set two laps worthy of 7th on the grid, he'd similarly have had even less of an issue... This is absolutely the intention of the rule – if you cock up a lap, it's ignored, and the others paid attention to, whether they're as fast, faster, slower, or non-existant.

[andrew]

[...] To be honest, starting in one of the fastest cars on new tyres whilst your competitors are on used tyres is not a bad way to start the race. I think Hamilon will have regained his original grid position by the end of lap one.

[andrew]

[...]

[Just_a_fan]

I think Hamilon will have regained his original grid position by the end of lap one.

I would agree if we weren't at Monaco. Even being in the fastest car (not that Hamilton is) on the best tyres counts for little at the Monaco karting circuit...

[doink]

Real shame for Hamilton, his greatest chance of a pole and win is at this track and it's practically been thrown away. I'm a big Lewis fan, but the guy needs to start shouldering some of the blame and not blame other drivers/engineers/car/team/strategy, it's childish at best.

[alelanza]

Such a stupid decision by the Lewis side of the McLaren garage.

They have thrown away a great chance of 25 points and instead replaced it with a very likely DNF.

If he'd been sat on pole/P2 with one more set of tyres than anyone else we'd all be calling them geniuses. It's a risk, this time it didn't pay off.

Couldn't agree more..

+1

Though it must be said that this being Monaco, not setting in a banker is riskier than in other places.

[Shrieker]

Just watched last season's race edit, and actually saw that pole position is not on the clean side of the track. Maybe it'll be a factor.