Virgin buys Wirth, joins Mclaren for technical partnership

[ESPImperium]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

Is this a vindication that CFD only dosnt work in F1???

Also Pat Symmonds as Consultant TD with the team using more normal F1 methods and them looking to take over the old Arrows/Super Aguri facility as well, plus the Mercedes/McLaren tie up as well.

Whats the reaction to this news???

Thanks to @ScarbsF1 for breaking this on on Twitter.

[axle]

I can't see McLaren in a 2nd tech tie-up.

As for the split, I think we knew it was coming the moment the MVR02 was launched...

[HampusA]

I think it does work to some extent. Just not 100%.

The Acura ARX-01abcde was all designed without a wind tunnel and has been very succesful
Obviously they don´t do F1 speeds but it shows it works to some extent atleast.

[horse]

For me a Le Mans prototype is a much simpler body shape than an F1 car that does not require such significant development as an F1 car either. I think F1 is pushing the boundaries of CFD automotive modelling whereas a Le Mans prototype is an interesting application of such. If you're pushing the envelope then you need good physical data to back up your numerical models which they were not willing to invest in.

Going beyond the lack of physical data, their designs were unadventurous at best. I think they underestimated how much resource is required to model an F1 car in CFD and how fast their conceptual models would have to evolve in order to stay competitive.

[HampusA]

Agreed, i guess the gap is way bigger then they really expected.
Maybe in 5-10 years we can solely depend on CFD numbers etc.

[horse]

Can you ever design new aerodynamics without collecting any physical data? I'm willing to bet not.

Predictive capability is built on the foundation of validation. How can you validate without physical data?

[Jersey Tom]

I don't think any professional aerodynamics engineer seriously thinks you can really compete at the F1 level with CFD only.

Not using a tunnel was likely more a money thing thing than anything.

[nacho]

By looking at their cars I have always felt it wasn't only the CFD that was the problem but their design look too simple, not very evolved, like they had too few people designing.

[wesley123]

The Wirth project in F1 was just too low budget. You can go to LMP with doing CFD and win, the development is way lower. Here the development pace is way, and way higher and you cannot keep up with the pace.

Apart from that, I doubt there really is anything wrong with the aerodynamics. You are running a 5 year old gearbox, with a new team and not one of the best cars on the grid. Even Lotus cannot come into Q2 on regular basis as Virgin wanted to achieve. How was Virgin ever going to do that with a mechanical package that is way behind?

The execution and build of the car also seems kinda sloppy, the way vanes were bonded to the diffuser imo didnt show that good craftmanship. You can design a car a sgood a syou like, but if you do not build it right, you still have nothing and that is rather the problem than Wirth's work.

[Belatti]

There are ways (or at least there were) to design cheap F1 cars. I recall Sergio Rindlands design of the Fondmetal from 1992. It was designed in short time, with no money and when the mechanical parts didnt fail they could get some middle grid positions. It was barely an F3 team and look what they did. Of course it was another time and another pace of deveopment. Still I hope you get the idea.

[Fil]

"A bad tradesman always blames his tools."


It's clear to see there's more wrong at Virgin than just their collaboration with Wirth Research.

Scapegoat anybody?

[xpensive]

True B, but Sergio Rinland is much more of a design engineer than Nick Wirth ever was, the latter would never even had been in F1 in the first place if it wasn't for his friendship and business relation with MrM and his son or whatever.

The man has never produced anything of value, his vertical suspension was simply chilidish and what he did at Benetton should best be forgotten. Most engineers in F1 would probably agree that CFD values needs to be verified by a wind-tunnel, which ikn turn needs to be calibrated by irl straight-line testing.

I thought I never see myself writing this, but I actually pity Richard Branson, suckered almost like poor Chad Hurley.

[marcush.]

let´s be clear here:
The benchmark is Lotus and Virgin has kept the gap from last year .To think they suddenly can move up the order was more than naive..lotus have not with all the effort they have put in ,so why should Virgin.
I feel that is more or less the end to Virgin ,as the new development department(!) will start from ZERO and again we will see a car not godd enough.
Rinland is a manager more than anything else by his own admission.He is giving out directives but not working on the technical side really.
So how does the Leafield thing fit in there? A new technical partnership? or are they buying the whole thing ,complete with Preston as the TD? they are out of it not too long (2008) working on concepts for Brawn but is this the way fast forward?

[xpensive]

...
Rinland is a manager more than anything else by his own admission.He is giving out directives but not working on the technical side really.
...

I don't know where Rinland said that marcush, looking at his track-record, it's obvious to me that he's very technical.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-rinser.html

[JGomezH]

From Epsilon Euskadi website :

In 2008, Rinland joined Epsilon Euskadi to command the EE1 LMP1 project for the La Mans Series and the Le Mans 24 Hours. He currently shares his responsibilities as Engineering Director with the Education Director ones.