MB engine bhp consistency

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Edis
Edis
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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hardingfv32 wrote:.5% is the norm for most high $ commercially available dynos. It is hard to fine a strain gage that is .1% and that is just the starting point for all the other tolerances that you will run into with the sub systems. I don't know why exactly, but I believe .1% would be good for electronic processing equipment.

Brian
Offers 0.1% of FS total system accuracy:

https://www.avl.com/dynoexact

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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fair enough ..having worked with strain gauges in hot environments with high temperature deltas and high rate of change ,I have learned that that theory and reality can deviate quite a bit...
I guess when AVL claims .1% potential ,it can be done.If your measuring equipment is .1% your engines cannot be more precise...so they can dyno the things to 1 HP?

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Edis, thanks for the very good info.

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Looking at the AVL dyno data sheet, they talk about "air-gap torque". How is this measurement made exactly?

Brian

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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hardingfv32 wrote:Looking at the AVL dyno data sheet, they talk about "air-gap torque". How is this measurement made exactly?

Brian
A first shaft and a second shaft are connected coaxially. A torsion bar converts a torque applied between two shafts into a torsion displacement. A multipolar magnet is fixed to the first shaft. One set of magnetic yokes is fixed to the second shaft and disposed in a magnetic field generated by the multipolar magnet. One set of flux collecting rings is disposed along an outer surface of the set of magnetic yokes and opposed to each other via an air gap in an axial direction. A magnetic sensor is provided for detecting the density of magnetic flux generated in the air gap. An outer cylindrical surface of the set of flux collecting rings is surrounded by a magnetic shield.
http://osdir.com/patents/Measuring-test ... 28887.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4345198.pdf

one of the commonly used sensors for onboard torque measurements in racing applications comes from ABB.

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot26 ... 1_-001.pdf

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot26 ... 1_-001.pdf
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hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Like a contactless Hall effect torque sensor?

Brian

munudeges
munudeges
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Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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The Cosworth article is a good read and gives as much of an insight as can be had into such an obviously secretive area, although because of that you have to take some of what is said with a pinch of salt. Whatever engine advantage you feel you have you want to stay locked in with the current homologation rules.
ESPImperium wrote:Ive always been told that F1 engines have as much as 3% differencial between them from the same manufacturer.

So if there is a 750hp engine, the next engine may be a 22.5HP differencial between the next one and the one previous to it.
This is the kind of statistical variance that I think was being alluded to in the Merc thread, and when you think about it it's quite sensible. When you're pushing the limits of various parameters like engine power and trying to trade off as much as you can with things like reliability then it is simply a fact that you are going to get a bell shaped curve distribution in what a sample of your engines are able to achieve. If you've got a flat distribution then your engines are well, well within tolerances and are consistent, but from a motorsport engine that has a limited lifespan that's not what you want because the sample you'll be using won't be producing as much power as they could do. The fact that there is acknowledged, significant degradation alone over the life of an engine should tell you there can be sizeable variances.

Engines are also homologated, and at least engine designs frozen. Engine manufacturers are now pushing the limits of what power they can get out of a set design and trading off against reliability and degradation, so if anything, the bell curve will be more pronounced. An engine manufacturer cannot change the design of engine in any significant way to equalise those factors.

It's an interesting subject, if one shrouded in obvious secrecy, smoke and mirrors, and I believe it has been an emotive area to discuss in the past so it would be nice if it can be kept cordial.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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I'm pretty certain of two things here;

A) There is a bell-curve distribution of engine power from the same manufacturer.

B) Neither Ferrari nor MBHPE is tossing coins over which teams get which engines.

Go figure.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

donskar
donskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
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Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Seems simple to me (said the guy who could not hack mechanical enginering :lol: )

With specs as identical as technology and human skill allows, there will still be a variance among "identical" engines -- or other devices. Just MHO, but I'd like to think that if the variance among most devices is X%, then in F1 it would be X/N% (<X%).

X (meaning Xpensive), of course Ferrari, WB's Evil Empire, keep the best engines for themselves. They pour Stepney's mysterious white powder in customer engines. M-B, paragon of Teutonic goodness, gives McL the best engines and keeps the runts of the litter for themselves. THAT is the real reason for Schu's lack of performannce!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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No mention of Schumacher or we will have this thread closed too.

Brian

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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All in all, there's so much to learn from dyno-testing of an engine these days, not only ultimate power, but torque characteristics, water and oil temperature, oil-degradation and contamination, vibration levels etc.

As every single tolerance in an engine is bell-curved, with modern measuring methods you can begin selection and matching of components at a very early stage during assembly, pistons and bores, journal bearings and what not.

When being competitive in Formula One is about tiny fractions of performance these days, I think both Ferrari and MBHPE would be outright stupid not to xplore this avenue?

All engines from MBHPE might be equal, but perhaps some are more equal than the others?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Question.

Why would Mercedes deliberately sabotage themselves?

The FIA inspects all engines, so the internals are all of an exacting standard as that put forward by the FIA. If there are discreprancies, they happen across the board and with all teams, not something specific only to Mercedes-Benz.

This thread should be renamed F1 engine consistency, if only to keep the subject matter consistent.
Finally, is there any evidence to suggest that the manufacturers get to keep the "pick of the crop"? Because they would need a system in place to ensure that that happened, and in the case of Mercedes who work very closely with McLaren(Exhaust tech)I would imagine that a Mclaren emloyee would have got wind of this a loooooong time ago.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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tbh ..I go with X here.
the law of evarages tells us there is some tolerance with everything and inevitably some will influence performance more or less dramatically.
So you got two customers and a works team...
You build say 60 engines and some of them are at a unspecified lower level of performance ,due to additional friction caused by a bearing tolerance thing or a combo of parts not really perfectly aligned due to the tolerances involved.added friction will inevitably hurt more at rising engine speeds and leed to higher temps.Very quickly you will arrive at an engine having the same nominal power but with higher losses.the wear patterns show no issues...what do you do ? explore the possibility to find out why this engine is a bit under your normal or send it to FI and sleep well after having negotiated a discount for this years championship due to the long lasting relationship...I think reality kicks in here.

munudeges
munudeges
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Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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Not specific to Merc though. If they're doing it then Ferrari are as well. I wonder how Renault would tackle this little problem?

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: MB engine bhp consistency

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A few years ago, we had a mobile hub dyno suitable for use in the paddock.
I suggested the teams and FIA used it to test the powertrain figures.
I was told that the engine manufacturers would not allow it.