What amount of power is too dangerous for Formula 1?

[HampusA]

The typical F1 driver is so small he's like a woman anyway .
the g forces are side to side in turns and it actually pumps blood to the head in braking the difference might not be so big.

true to some extent Heidfeld walks like a girl anyway
He has a very special walking style to from what i´ve seen atleast.

Ok good point, never thought of that. Yea i think that once a lady truly understands how to go fast and obviously with some talent she will be able to challenge the greatest drivers in the world.

Infact, i think the greatest open wheel driver in the world in the next 20 year will be a female with the same persona and legend status as the great Senna.

no not right now, i watched a documentary regarding fighter pilots and they said that women are much better at withstanding g forces due to their body. which in general (in the military atleast) is a much smaller frame.

Padding?

Seriously though, the smaller frame makes sense.

Padding? Sorry, english IS suck on my part.

Agreed, in theory atleast. But from real world tests it seems it doesn´t really matter. That´s why i´m starting to think it´s a mental issue.

[andrew]

Padding? Sorry, english IS suck on my part.

Agreed, in theory atleast. But from real world tests it seems it doesn´t really matter. That´s why i´m starting to think it´s a mental issue.

I was referring to anatomy, rather than padding meaning extra words for no reason.

Terrible joke, I didn't even bother taking my coat off for that one.

[HampusA]

LOL
Ok i see, sorry for not recognizing the "obvious joke"

[justsomeguy]

First off thanks for the greeting. Second, I am well aware of the implications of safety, car setup etc. etc. when power is increased. Obviously traction will be an issue and in the good ol days the teams could cope with four digit horsepower just fine. Traction control was the best thing to hear with my own ears when it was activated, although I'm sure drivers could do a fine job with their right foot anyway, yet for whatever reason (ignoring rumors)it was removed from the sport. I am never argued the fact that rules are in place for a reason. I just as a fan don't want overkill with these regs killing all of the hard work the teams do to make their car better than the competition. What's next? Take them down to 50hp go karts to make sure no one crashes and to save on fuel? I just don't want to see the sport get so watered down it isn't exciting anymore. I've even heard of rumors of sprinkler systems being installed at the tracks to "liven" up the race. Come on, they want to be so concerned with safety yet they are willing to risk saftey for a little passing fun? It's more like 20 percent concern for the driver and 80 percent concern for themselves, their jobs, and sponsors. There is more to racing than just passing. It's seeing the driver work his ass off with an insane car to achieve victory. I've been there. It's exhilarating. It is understood a driver has to drive his best to keep his seat, and they need to be enthused about the car they drive, but interviews say all with what the driver wants. Most say more power. Button, Hamilton, Kimi just to name a few have expressed this opinion. When will the circus end?

[Jeffsvilleusa]

Thanks HampusA and DaveKillens for the interesting insight on G-forces and the dangers there. I have also heard the line of reasoning that the cars can be too fast for human response, where drivers will have to wear G-suits and be hopped up on drugs to be able to react quick enough, but that danger is ever present.

Things can change in a split-second and there will be no time to react. I remember seeing the video of Kubica's accident from Canada 07, and there was a marshall in the camera shot, and you can see him reacting by jumping back once Kubica's car came into his peripheral vision, but by the time he had jumped back the car was long past him, and it goes to show in some circumstances there is no time to react.

Strad- I think the races are still dangerous enough! I remember seeing another video on youtube of some guy spying on Alonso when he was on vacation or something, and Alonso said to the guy "*&^% off! I risk my life to race, so leave me alone!" And I'm sure he was sincere. We may not have had any deaths, but it's more a question of 'when' not 'if.' There have been several deaths in other series, a few in GP2 I believe. And not to mention danger to marshalls or spectators, relative innocents.

Also some of the crashes these drivers walk away from are quite horrific. I remember seeing Kovaleinen lodged under a tire barrier. Webber's flip. Alonso in Brazil in 03. Racing remains dangerous. We should just be happy we've been enjoying a period of relative safety.

I'm pretty sure the drivers would agree improved safety is a good thing.

[strad]

I don't blame you for not understanding...

[cossie]

Anyway, any amount of power is safe really. It's upto the driver to not be an idiot and keep his foot pressed on the pedal all the time. That's how I've always seen it...

I also subscribe to the theory of trusting the drivers, but the events at Texas in 2001 concerning the Firestone Firehawk 600 indicate otherwise. The driver's bodies were not up to the stress imposed by the Texas track, which didn't reveal itself immediately, but in a gradual, cumulative manner.

The first serious concerns about driver safety occurred on Friday afternoon. Dr. Steve Olvey, CART Director of Medical Affairs, would later report that two drivers felt dizzy and disoriented after running their cars at over 230 mph (370 km/h), and that they felt they couldn't control their cars. The identities of the two drivers were not disclosed, but Tony Kanaan and Alex Zanardi later claimed they experienced the symptoms. Adrian Fernandez also reported to the media he was experiencing dizziness. Olvey said in his 25 years of working in motorsports, it was a problem he had never experienced.

During qualifying, drivers were reporting 5 lateral Gs sustained for 14-18 of the 23 seconds per lap.

By late Saturday afternoon, concerns were rising about driver safety on the track. Patrick Carpentier went to the medical facility to have his wrist checked. As an aside, he mentioned that he could not walk in a straight line for at least four minutes after he got out of his car. An impromptu survey was taken during the private drivers' meeting and 21 of the 25 drivers in the starting field reported suffering disorientation and vertigo-like symptoms, including inner ear, or vision problems, after running more than 10 laps (or 20 laps). They also claimed that they had had virtually no peripheral vision and limited reaction time. This was due to sustained g-loads as high as 5.5--almost double what most persons can endure, and closer to what jet pilots usually experience in shorter time intervals.

Texas is a high banked track and CcRT at the time was running mostly on flat ovals , and street and road courses, also Honda and Toyaota were not agreeable to turn the boost down on the turbo, CART was running 1000hp at the time, also when de Ferran ran 241 at MIghigan.

On October 28, 2000, during CART qualifying at Auto Club Speedway, Gil de Ferran set the track record for fastest lap at 241.426 mph (388.537 km/h). This is considered by some as the world speed record for fastest lap on a closed course, however, some debate whether or not it was an official record as recognized by the FIA.[1]

[Jersey Tom]

241 at Fontana is insane, then again I'm used to much slower speeds. We qualified in the 180's back in March..

[Nowhereman]

Quite frankly, I see no limit.
The turbo V12s produced tremendous power and very few got hurt because of that.
Chassis engineering had become incredibly good.
Allowing 1000 + BHP would narrow down the quality of the driver, which is what I would like to see as today, you can literally buy a seat in an F1 cockpit.
Only the pinnacle in engineering and drivers in F1.
Only a few restrictions; car safety, exposed wheels, open cockpit, etc.
Let em go for it.

[raymondu999]

In terms of straightline/braking, I don't see a limit. I think the problem is guys like Adrian Newey who will see the extra power as extra drag possibility, and use it to instead crank up the car's downforce (we all know Newey is a grip man, not a grunt man). At what point does the heavy G-loading get too much? I don't believe that under braking/extreme turns there isn't effect. There has to be a finite limit to what our bodies can achieve.

[flynfrog]

In terms of straightline/braking, I don't see a limit. I think the problem is guys like Adrian Newey who will see the extra power as extra drag possibility, and use it to instead crank up the car's downforce (we all know Newey is a grip man, not a grunt man). At what point does the heavy G-loading get too much? I don't believe that under braking/extreme turns there isn't effect. There has to be a finite limit to what our bodies can achieve.

this is not a Newey thing it is any racing car designer in the world. There is an optimal sacrifice of top speed for grip for every track you would be an idiot not to build to it.

[HampusA]

Another thing with higher G-forces is tires.
Imagine having a car that can do 7 or 8 G´s easy in corners.
The tires would take such an incredible punishment.

So to make them last longer you loose grip and you don´t really want to be sliding in a car that can pull that high g-forces

[HampusA]

In terms of straightline/braking, I don't see a limit. I think the problem is guys like Adrian Newey who will see the extra power as extra drag possibility, and use it to instead crank up the car's downforce (we all know Newey is a grip man, not a grunt man). At what point does the heavy G-loading get too much? I don't believe that under braking/extreme turns there isn't effect. There has to be a finite limit to what our bodies can achieve.

When we reach Jetplane G´s we can start discussing about reaching the human limit of what´s possible.
Right now it´s alot of G´s but still nowhere close to the limit.

[Ciro Pabón]

It's not only intensity but also duration.



Have you ever raced? How much time can your neck take 3 Gs? My ribs hurt after 20 laps, probably because they've been cracked a lot.

It's like making love twice in a row: you end panting and sweating. I see little stars moving across my field of view.... but I'm 51.

I also see those little stars when racing, btw.

Now, about previous posts dismissing too much power because if the car has more power than the one the driver can handle, you think that's not important because the driver can limit the power with the throttle.

So, just answer me this, newbie engineer: why on heaven are you using that engine? You should use a lighter one. You would have smaller lap times...

Now, I don't know how many pilots there are in your family, but the ones in mine (that is, fighter pilots) tell me that the worst part, specially when you are on a beach, are the buttocks (the capillary blow out in your butt, making it mottled red for the love of Pete).

Finally, you can lear all there is about the Valsalva, M-1, and L-1 manouvers to counteract G forces, but when you pull out of the positive G force, the rush of blood in your eyes causes retinal damage. You might not know it, but the pressure in your eyes works against the pressure in your blood. You pressurize the blood, you pressurize your eyes. You stop the pressure, the eyes will bounce back.

That's why straight deceleration is such a biatch. You can tolerate around 4 or 5 Gs compressing you, but you fade out and your eyes are damaged when you are under 2 Gs stretching you.

I, for one, notice very clearly how I lose peripheral vision under heavy braking. Now, it might not be important to you, until somebody crashes you because he doesn't see you.

Retinal damage seems to be not important, until you're 50. Lemme tell you that during a grey-out (you don't see colours) you still can hear, feel, speak and think, so it's not the brain, it's the eyes, stupid. Actually, you can use it (the grayout) to identify your limit.

[WhiteBlue]

The discussion disregards the impact of cornering speeds on circuit design. The FiA has improved the safety by requiring bigger run offs than those in the 80ties. To increase performance beyond the present would be very foolish IMO. We already see them pulling unprecedented Gs in corners like 130R in Suzuka. The upshot is that power, downforce and tyre grip are all linked together. It is unwise to increase power or downforce beyond the level that the circuits can handle with the current run offs. We will only see more dangerous accidents.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgE24ZhcIfQ[/youtube]

I have previously pointed to lethal accident of young Henry Surtees in Brands Hatch. If the track have had F1 standard run offs Henry Clark's car would have been safely arrested without ripping a wheel off the chassis. Surtees would not have been hit by a wheel bouncing over the track. It illustrates the reason why the FiA insists on big tarmac run offs and high tech TecPro barriers to kill the energy. Excessive cornering speeds are counter productive to the over all safety concept of F1. So it is not only about the limits of the human body.