Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[shelly]

Whenever in the rain racing hamilton. Hamilton makes him look like a rookie.

Brazil 2008 tells differently

[Traction]

Whenever in the rain racing hamilton. Hamilton makes him look like a rookie.

Brazil 2008 tells differently

exactly...he ovetook Hamilton in the rain so I`m not sure where the rookie part comes into it....

[Traction]

so? That shows any racecraft? The Toro Rosso's work their way up from 17th till tenth every race, still everyone has huge critic on both drivers. Racecraft for me means that you can overtake, defend, drive quickly and are able to anticipate on what has to come. To me Vettel only has the drive quickly part, although his overtake in Monza last weekend was a good one. He only drives quickly with the car he gets, he doesnt push the team in any when it is needed to, he barely gives any input and when he is outside the car he seems lazy as hell. The only reason he is becoming a 2 time WDC is because of the car, not because he himself worked really hard for it. Lok at Alonso, he pushes the team, he really works for it and has really worked for what he achieved, and the same counts for Schumacher. 2 guys who really build the team, really know their team and fought for it. Not getting a car delivered to drive in and drive fast, he is supposed to win the championship in it, I'd expect 90% of the field to do the same thing in his position, nothing specially Vettel about it but more Red Bull

So using that statement about not really having worked for the car how different is Hamilton`s situation when starting F1 and been given a Mclaren?

When SV started in F1 he basically started at the bottom but by his sheer display of ability he was spotted early on by the big names and even then when he was taken aboard by RBR the RB at that stage was certainly nowhere near a race winner. Similar to what Schumi found himself in when he joined with Ferrari.It would be impossible for a team to go from a non winning situation to a winning situation without having a solid driver that understands what is needed from a car in order to make it win and thats why Vettel is an integral part of the formula, he understands what is needed more than most and also has the ability to relay that info to the team.Could other drivers have done it. Maybe. But Vettel was certainly not their first driver.

[wesley123]

so you are saying that while stepping in to red bull from STR he rebuild the whole team in this short period? No, Vettel is nothing different compared to Hamilton, he was always meant to be driving the red Bull, just like Hamilton was the case. Red Bull gave him 2 years to grow in the STR. Vettel's career is nothing different compared to Hamilton's career(which I didnt even mention), only Vettel was given time to grow, Hamilton was not, and based on his performance it wasnt even needed.

[Traction]

so you are saying that while stepping in to red bull from STR he rebuild the whole team in this short period? No, Vettel is nothing different compared to Hamilton, he was always meant to be driving the red Bull, just like Hamilton was the case. Red Bull gave him 2 years to grow in the STR. Vettel's career is nothing different compared to Hamilton's career(which I didnt even mention), only Vettel was given time to grow, Hamilton was not, and based on his performance it wasnt even needed.

No I am not saying he built the whole team, that would be illogical. I said he is an integral part of the formula that contributed to RBR becoming a winning team. He is part of the whole. No team can elevate themselves into that situation without an intelligent driver wiling to take the car to it's limits. How else will they now how to improve. Vettel provides them with that information. The testing, the racing, the early trial and error stages, the ongoing strategy and set up of the car from race to race is hard work and I am sure that no one can consider SV lazy based on the results week after week.

You claim he has no race craft an is lazy yet you ignore the races where he excelled through the ranks.

[PlatinumZealot]

It's all in the car and the confidence. But he is not the fastest nor the best. Just like Alonso seemed unbeatable in the Renualt, until he met his match in 2007.

Vettel has only driven against Journeyman Webber. When you have 33% percent more downforce and a washed up 35 year old teammate it's easy to look good.

I think his strength is consistency.. but consistency and precision always goes to hell when you are under crushing pressure. So I say, let us see Vettel against a Rosberg or a Kubica, a Sutil even Diresta! before we jump to any conclusions.

[MIKEY_!]

Wonder how much of vettels success and confidence in the car is due to Marks input to the tech guys over the last couple of years.

[ringo]

Whenever in the rain racing hamilton. Hamilton makes him look like a rookie.

Brazil 2008 tells differently

exactly...he ovetook Hamilton in the rain so I`m not sure where the rookie part comes into it....

You are lacking many details here. You forgot about Kubica and what role he played to make that overtake happen. Also the condition of the tyres.
We need to remember the details when we make these claims.
Vettel's wet skills haven't really been displayed. Every wet race in the last 2 years or 3 years, we haven't really seen anything spectacular.
You are free to show the evidence. I got mine.

For Vettel to have an era, he needs to stand out in terms of skill. His skill needs to be so high that it's ungodly. He's fast but he doesn't have that edge that sets him apart from the others. I can see many doing what he is doing in the Newey car.
Alonso did it in the renault, which was a great car. Proven himself to be pretty good, in fact the best. 2006 is but now a memory. Alonso era never really existed.

[MIKEY_!]

Alonso only got 2 years as well. To have a Vettel era we need to wait. Personally I think he has proven himself but if it turns out he can't keep doing it then he will not have an era.

[PNSD]

Vettel has only driven against Journeyman Webber. When you have 33% percent more downforce

This is a technical forum after all so do you mind providing the mathematics for that conclusion?

There seems to be alot of raw people in this thread with regards to Vettel's success. How anyone can question his ability in the wet or dry is amazing. Surely his wet weather prowess has been proven on numerous occasions. At least as many as Lewis, Jenson and Alonso, if not more regularly.

Ringo, you say you have your evidence? What does this consist of exactly? I would not say I have solid evidence, though I would suggest watching the Chinese Grand Prix of 2007, the Monaco GP of 2008, Italian GP of 2008 and of course his following races in the wet.

Let's see this evidence, and at least some sort of basis for your comment about Lewis making him look like a rookie in the wet.

[RB7ate9]

To reiterate some of the statements already made, we will need to see more than some good single races in his rookie seasons, a stellar RBR debut, and a WDC (and, let's face it, a second) to really start defining this season, last season's, or previous as the "Vettel Era". That term, itself, lends to generalization, bias, and faulty comparisons.

What we are seeing is the making of a real champion. Enough to define a soon to be seen "Era"? No, but a champion nonetheless.

Vettel has, for better or worse of other people's opinions, matured far beyond any of us can really fathom. If one compares his results from 2010 to now (not regarding technical issues) but performance and manner on the race-track, he is excelling where he needs to and doesn't threaten his team's results with neither hot-dogging or being timid with six gp wins under his belt. He has proven a lot of things:

1. With Toro Rosso he proved that he could speed to GP wins - if given the opportunity.

2. With RBR in 2009, he proved that in a supposedly lesser car (compared to the Brawns) he could take Pole and Win (China 2009)

3. With RBR in 2010, he proved that he could put his talents in a stellar car to win a WDC (albeit with a hair's breadth of a margin)

4. With RBR in 2011, he is proving that he has the coolness to put his talents to use in a stellar car by eking every ounce from it on the track without risking more than the team ought to risk (outrageous overtakes, pushing beyond grip, loss of concentration - Canada notwithstanding) to be more than just a fluke in a good car.

The "Era of Vettel" will come after he's proven himself to be more than a flash in the pan. His extreme success this year could drastically change next season. We do not know. All we know is his resounding wins have the potential to put him past Alonso, Hamilton, and Button. But that's all: potential.

We are not seeing a "Vettel Era" we are seeing a "World Champion Vettel".

[raymondu999]

To reiterate some of the statements already made, we will need to see more than some good single races in his rookie seasons, a stellar RBR debut, and a WDC (and, let's face it, a second) to really start defining this season, last season's, or previous as the "Vettel Era". That term, itself, lends to generalization, bias, and faulty comparisons.

What we are seeing is the making of a real champion. Enough to define a soon to be seen "Era"? No, but a champion nonetheless.

Vettel has, for better or worse of other people's opinions, matured far beyond any of us can really fathom. If one compares his results from 2010 to now (not regarding technical issues) but performance and manner on the race-track, he is excelling where he needs to and doesn't threaten his team's results with neither hot-dogging or being timid with six gp wins under his belt. He has proven a lot of things:

1. With Toro Rosso he proved that he could speed to GP wins - if given the opportunity.

2. With RBR in 2009, he proved that in a supposedly lesser car (compared to the Brawns) he could take Pole and Win (China 2009)

3. With RBR in 2010, he proved that he could put his talents in a stellar car to win a WDC (albeit with a hair's breadth of a margin)

4. With RBR in 2011, he is proving that he has the coolness to put his talents to use in a stellar car by eking every ounce from it on the track without risking more than the team ought to risk (outrageous overtakes, pushing beyond grip, loss of concentration - Canada notwithstanding) to be more than just a fluke in a good car.

The "Era of Vettel" will come after he's proven himself to be more than a flash in the pan. His extreme success this year could drastically change next season. We do not know. All we know is his resounding wins have the potential to put him past Alonso, Hamilton, and Button. But that's all: potential.

We are not seeing a "Vettel Era" we are seeing a "World Champion Vettel".

Bravo. Well said. Hear hear.

[raymondu999]

Vettel has only driven against Journeyman Webber. When you have 33% percent more downforce and a washed up 35 year old teammate it's easy to look good.

As Tomba said earlier let's not forget Mark has always been very fast. Putting a Jaguar on the front row, etc

[RB7ate9]

While I am up and amped, I went through a theoretical view of the current season if there was no Vettel (purely points based, of course) but the order of completion remained the same (essentially the four other runner-ups receive one additional place for points).

Current:
Vet 284
Web 167
Ham 158
But 167
Alo 172

Sans Vettel:
Web 206
Ham 191
But 199
Alo 207

Essentially, it would have been a cracking good season (with plenty of wins spread amongst them) and Webber would still be 2nd, despite no wins! (Not too bad for a journeyman ).

On topic: Vettel is absolutely dominating this year, without a doubt. Right driver in the right car on the right team. Webber (sigh) is a slower driver in a brilliant car, Button and Hamilton are good drivers in good cars, Alonso (grr) is a great driver in a good car. Against this field, a third WDC (not even a WCC) next year will solidify my vote for an era of Vettel.

[raymondu999]

Careful not to give ALL a one place boost. If they finished ahead of Vettel (like in Nurburgring) then they should stay where they are.

Also, do you mean Webber is 1st, rather than 2nd? Your calculations seem to show he's 1st