Power-differentiation in 2014 and beyond?

[xpensive]

When the current engine regs are so detailed and the resulting difference in power between makes has become so miniscule, with one xception perhaps, engines has to my mind become a rather un-interesting parameter within Formula One technology.

Is there any chance that the 2014 regs will yield more of a power-differentiation, including the MGUH of course?

[Ian P.]

Initially .... yes.
By half season, assuming there are no onerous Parc Ferme or engine homologation regulations, I expect them all to be similar.
The engine development will be interesting from a purely technical angle. The limitation on fuel flow will result in the only differentiation coming down to thermodynamic efficiency.
Talk all you like about 15,000 rpm and boost levels, the fuel flow rate limit will control output totally.
Smaller engines, central single turbo, slimmer exhausts, look to the cars being even more aero than current and greater downforce.
Don't get me wrong, the fuel flow rate limit is a brilliant move to limit output without silly regulations like restrictor plates, inlet area limits or a host of other arbitrary controls. Just not going to be the same though.

[raymondu999]

I assume though probably the FIA will force homologising after a time. How long did it take them to homologise V10s and V8s?

[ESPImperium]

I assume though probably the FIA will force homologising after a time. How long did it take them to homologise V10s and V8s?

I belive the V6s will have free and open regs untill the end of the first season, then they will have 25% of their design homologated for 2015, then after 2016 it will be 60% homologation and in 2017 it will be closeer to 85-90% homologated.

After each homologation run id expect there to be some disparity to a point, initially the differencial will be as much as 20% of a diffrence covering each manufacturer. Each time there is a homologation there will be a gap that is ever decreasing, and by the end of it id recon that we will have engines that are as close together by as much as 20hp from most powerful to least powerful.

The thing as well as there is to also be a host of common parts as well i belive such as the fuel pump that will be fuel flow limited to 1kg per 2.55km or something simmilar as the V6s are to reduce the fuel consumption by 40% to the cyurrent V8s. Also the idea of a common turbo have also been talked about so that one engine cant have better one than another, but also this is is to also limit the boost rate.

The one area that i belive that will be the new black arts area is KERS/HERS/SERS, as i think that the teams and engine manufacturers will be trying to make them as light as posible with the largest charge and power output as posible. KERS will be easily encorperated, HERS will be slightly harder, but another aera that is being exploited is Sound Energy Recovery Systems, but they are at least 7 to 10 years away at present.

From what im also led to belive is that McLaren Electronics Systems will probably be kept as the suppliers of the Standard ECU and Dash display items, but the display will be designed with more on it as drivers are wanting some more on it. Id also like to say with this that the FIA are looking into steering wheels as there are too many buttons and switches on them and are looking at making the steering wheels to have at maximum 10 buttons and 5 rotarys with 4 paddles on the back of the steering wheels for clutch(es) and gear changes. This is to give the drivers less to do and more time to concentrate on racing.

[WhiteBlue]

The philosophy in the engine working group was to keep a very tight ship in terms of equality of power. There are two reasons behind that.

1. Cost limitation
The constructors generally do not want to increase engine or power train cost but keep it down.

2. Competitive advantage is supposed to come mainly from the chassis
Again the constructors in their majority do not want to emphasize the competitive advantage of power train developments.

The solution they have found is a relatively tight spec on the engine, the MGUH and the MGUK. We can expect some of these specs to become looser in favour of more energy efficient technologies as the initial effect of the new power train introduction wears off.

So I fully expect to see variable geometry turbo, multi scrolls, variable valves, higher energy storage and power in parallel with a successive reduction of the fuel allowance. But I also expect those moves to be carefully balanced in a way that they do not create an arms race and send costs spiralling.

[ringo]

I dont expect much of those. Those are really cake decorations; like traction control.
They detract from the main idea and only help performance slightly.

Variable geometry turbos are kind of excessive.
Multi scrolls maybe, varible valve timing nope, kinda unnecessary.
reduced fuel allowance, i think they just want to get the point across that it is being reduced. They may not reduce it further.
FIA just want to make bold statements, i don't think they are really into the whole green energy save the oil reserves thing.

Keeping it simple controls cost as well too.
The V6 hybrid with single turbo and direct injection is good enough in term of efficiency and cost effectiveness.

[WhiteBlue]

I think youn are kidding yourself if you believe that the 2014 fuel rules will stay a long time. It is the declared aim to take further reductions from there, which will only be possible with more efficiency technologies. There is no U-turn insight on the green policy from the FiA. Quite contrary. They will keep pushing this policy as the single most important aspect for the decade.

[Lycoming]

FIA just want to make bold statements, i don't think they are really into the whole green energy save the oil reserves thing.

I agree with the first part of that statement. The FIA are a bit useless at actually doing stuff. I disagree with the second part. The sport is run by businessmen, and a green image is good for business, at least in their view. But they seem to have forgotten that this is motor racing, and those are 2 contradictory goals. They have also forgotten that this is the FIA so pretty much anything they do will be pretty ineffective. So I can understand why you think they don't really care.

that said, I do agree that more restrictions will come along with more boosts to the electric systems. I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about that, as the details on implementation aren't really there just yet (at least not past 2014). but there is potential in the technology. A team ran a hybrid 911 with an energy recovery system similar to KERS, with the exception of being more powerful, powering the front wheels and and being flywheel based. They ran this car in the 24 hours of nurburgring and were leading until they retired (I cant remember why this year). the equipment added something like 100 kilos, but being able to run 25% longer on the same tank of fuel makes a lot of difference in endurance racing.

now that said, the danger with hybrids is that eventually F1 will become more electric than petrol. and that would be stupid. but the 2014 regulations themselves don't alarm me so much in that perspective.

[xpensive]

The philosophy in the engine working group was to keep a very tight ship in terms of equality of power. There are two reasons behind that.
...
2. Competitive advantage is supposed to come mainly from the chassis
Again the constructors in their majority do not want to emphasize the competitive advantage of power train developments.
...

If true, I fail to see how the FIA can hope to engage new engine-manufacturers, what's the point if it's all a show anyway?

Depressing.

[ESPImperium]

I think youn are kidding yourself if you believe that the 2014 fuel rules will stay a long time. It is the declared aim to take further reductions from there, which will only be possible with more efficiency technologies. There is no U-turn insight on the green policy from the FiA. Quite contrary. They will keep pushing this policy as the single most important aspect for the decade.

2014 could be the last year with unregulated fuel tanks, the long standing rumour is that there will be a limit on fuel cell size in 2015, id recon 120kg would be ideal. However the car could have to be 650kg at the end of the race and say 780kg at the start of the race. But the fuel cell will be kept to a minimum as the fuel flow will be fixed and wii not be able to be changed during the race as it will always supply a fixed amount of fuel. Meaning that the engines will be kept to a optimal minimum power output and Energy Recovery Systems will make the diffrence.

[Edis]

I dont expect much of those. Those are really cake decorations; like traction control.
They detract from the main idea and only help performance slightly.

Variable geometry turbos are kind of excessive.
Multi scrolls maybe, varible valve timing nope, kinda unnecessary.
reduced fuel allowance, i think they just want to get the point across that it is being reduced. They may not reduce it further.
FIA just want to make bold statements, i don't think they are really into the whole green energy save the oil reserves thing.

Keeping it simple controls cost as well too.
The V6 hybrid with single turbo and direct injection is good enough in term of efficiency and cost effectiveness.

Does anyone have any specifics on the regulations regarding the turbocharger? Does the FIA plan to use standard unit turbocharger or are the different engine manufacturers allowed to use any turbocharger they want?

If it's a standard unit variable vanes would be pointless, but even if the turbochargers are free I would think that variable vanes would be difficult to use due to the high exhaust temperatures. I would expect the exhaust temperature to be higher than the +1000degC of the Le Mans diesels which use variable vane turbochargers these days. To resist high exhaust temperatures are important since it allows the use of leaner air/fuel ratios at full load.

As for variable valve timing, I think we can rule out anything else than simple cam phasing. Variable valve timing comes with a weight and friction handicap and when operating at full load and high speed, those will do more harm than good.

Same goes for the direct fuel injection system where I suspect the engine manufacturers will use Bosch Motorsports multihole, solenoid actuated injectors placed between the inlet valves combined with their high pressure cam driven plunger type pump (perhaps one per bank). The Bosch Motorsport system is capable to operate with fuel pressures of up to 500 bars, which would explain the 500 bar limit imposed by the FIA. According to Bosch Motorsport these solenoid injectors are prefered for motorsport applications over piezoelectric injectors due to their small size, low weight and flexibility for spray pattern design. The placement between the inlet valve allows good mixing and cooling for operation at high speed and load.

[nobeard]

They can use any supplier, or their own design for the pressure charging system. That s according to the 5.1.6 article on the FIA tech rules for 2014.

[noname]

Is there any chance that the 2014 regs will yield more of a power-differentiation, including the MGUH of course?

2014 regulations open doors to variety of compounding levels and strategies how to use this extra energy.

With a time, once the teams will learn more, difference between will become be smaller, I think, but beginning could be interesting.

[Richied76]

would it be fair to say that physics have a limit (fuel can only provide so much power) and material science also has its limits (efficiency has a peek) and as we have seen this year, cars can look nothing like each other. With different approches will still yield the same results.

Give it one season and by 2015, unless there is a major material breakthrough...all the engines will be practicaly identical

[WhiteBlue]

I suspect the engine manufacturers will use Bosch Motorsports multihole, solenoid actuated injectors placed between the inlet valves combined with their high pressure cam driven plunger type pump (perhaps one per bank). The Bosch Motorsport system is capable to operate with fuel pressures of up to 500 bars, which would explain the 500 bar limit imposed by the FIA. According to Bosch Motorsport these solenoid injectors are prefered for motorsport applications over piezoelectric injectors due to their small size, low weight and flexibility for spray pattern design. The placement between the inlet valve allows good mixing and cooling for operation at high speed and load.

Interesting speculation! I agree that Bosch would be a very likely supplier of the standardized injection system, but I doubt that they would use something that isn't specifically engineered for the purpose. The FiA would probably use cutting edge technology and not something that is already available.