Indian GP 2011 - Buddh

[Traction]

Just found the Button interview after qualifying plus onboard footage. Button said he lifted off when he saw the accident and yellow. The stewards will have looked at telemetry and presumably saw he lifted for a couple of seconds until he got the green.

That's different to entering a yellow zone at full pace as Hamilton did, and admitted.

We can argue that the penalties are harsh, but I don't see much scope for arguing about the facts of the matter. Seems like the stewards are being consistent.

That's how different the two scenarios were...Button was virtually at the scene when the yellow lights went on and then he lifted, went past and freeing him up. The flags weren't even up.

The flags weren't up but the warning lights were. Are you saying that the warning lights should be ignored completely as they don't indicate anything?

No but his arrival at the scene and the lights coming on were literally simultaneous and he lifted off

[myurr]

The flags weren't up but the warning lights were. Are you saying that the warning lights should be ignored completely as they don't indicate anything?

No but his arrival at the scene and the lights coming on we're literally simultaneous and he lifted off

The lights were on a couple of seconds before his arrival, and he couldn't have lifted by much as he set his fastest lap of the weekend. There could also have been a second incident or debris that he couldn't have seen so strictly speaking he should have observed the flashing yellow light.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Button should have been penalised. But I don't see why this is so different to Hamilton's transgression where the FIA cocked up and were clearly signalling to the driver that the track was clear. I'm interested as to what the concrete difference is that makes you believe that Button, who clearly gained by going quickly through that danger zone, should have been let off but that Hamilton, who had nothing to gain with it being a practice session and had the mitigating circumstances of incorrect signalling being used by the FIA, should have been given a three place grid penalty.

[Traction]

Hamilton had a long time to see the yellow flags and even if other lights were flashing he should have gone with the one that indicated the highest level of danger. He had a lot of distance to see them but by his own admission never listened to them. Button was a couple of seconds if anything and lifted of, indicating adherence and awareness of the scene, he the. Passed the scene and was freed up. Perez did the same as LH, just ignored the yellows.Button never ignored them.

[beelsebob]

Hamilton had a long time to see the yellow flags and even if other lights were flashing he should have gone with the one that indicated the highest level of danger. He had a lot of distance to see them but by his own admission never listened to them. Button was a couple of seconds if anything and lifted of, indicating adherence and awareness of the scene, he the. Passed the scene and was freed up. Perez did the same as LH, just ignored the yellows.Button never ignored them.

The length of that straight is about 3 seconds, so Ham/Perez had less time than Button to see what was going on, and a less clear indicator (small yellow flags, rather than a crash and a flashing yellow light). Button clearly didn't lift, as he set his fastest time in that sector of the entire day.

[Richard]

Hamilton entered the yellow zone with DRS on. He told us that himself. The confusing flags were at the end of the yellow zone after he already transgressed.

Button says he saw the accident and eased off for the second or two where he had a yellow. The stewards have looked at the telemetry and agreed.

Once again teams and stewards have telemetry and agree with events, no one at the track is appealing, or even using euphemisms such as "unlucky" but armchair fans think they know better?

Sorry - I forget forum etiquette. Silly me. Every time an armchair fan doesn't know the full facts, we have to assume the rest of the world is wrong. The people at the track don't know what they are doing, the cold hard numbers from telemetry are wrong.

Whatever next? What if a driver causes a crash, admits "I didn't see the other car, I didn't know he was there, it was my fault". Will the fans on forums be dispute that too? Silly me, we've already done that at the Spa this year.

[beelsebob]

Hamilton entered the yellow zone with DRS on. He told us that himself. The confusing flags were at the end of the yellow zone after he already transgressed.

There was no indicator other than the confusing flags, so how could he have transgressed before seeing them?

[Gerhard Berger]

can we not talk about the actual performances of the drivers and what we think might happen tommorow?

These penalty arguments are rather tedious and are the type of things you find on austosport/planetf1 forums.

[Richard]

Berger is correct.

[ringo]

its called prevention which as they say is better than the cure....

What is there to be prevented?

safety comes first...prevention of any unsafe situation...stop been short sighted...

You are so biased, it's not even funny.

what happened to safety?

[ringo]

There was no indicator other than the confusing flags, so how could he have transgressed before seeing them?

Have you seen the onboard footage? Have you seen the telemetry? Do you know how many yellows were shown to Hamilton?

Rules are the rules right?
You said it yourself. Button broke them blatantly. He gained from doing his fastes lap in qualifying.
Hamilton didn't gain anything in practice. the stewards messed up the signals as well.

Button didn't have any conflicting signals thrown at him. He saw the flashing yellows and he saw massa go off, and he decided to set his fastest time.

You can't deny that. It is in contravention of the rules.

You like a few here, simply have a bone to pick with the BOSS. You can't call yourself an impartial observer if you think truly believe button was within the rules to set a fastest lap during a yellow.
He didn't do it in turkey 2010 when MS went off, why is it right to do it now?

You guys let me down man.

[ringo]

I do feel sorry for the stewards, they have all the telemetry and cameras hence they are far better informed than us, but they are still damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Out of interest, where was Button in relation to Massa's crash? Am I allowed to ask that, or do are we only allowed to condemn on this tread?

Drivers had to be past the accident zone in able to keep the speed up. Button was into the corner and did lift off at the scene. The yellow lights cam on after he passed the accident and the flags certainly never. Seen as he was past the scene he could keep his speed up.

Nope he saw the yellows. I've seen the on car camera, yellow clearly flashing at least 5 times before Button passed the light.

[ringo]

Just found the Button interview after qualifying plus onboard footage. Button said he lifted off when he saw the accident and yellow. The stewards will have looked at telemetry and presumably saw he lifted for a couple of seconds until he got the green.

That's different to entering a yellow zone at full pace as Hamilton did, and admitted.

We can argue that the penalties are harsh, but I don't see much scope for arguing about the facts of the matter. Seems like the stewards are being consistent.

You are piece of work you know.
Ultimate contradiction of earlier posts and what the rules clearly state.

[Traction]

I do feel sorry for the stewards, they have all the telemetry and cameras hence they are far better informed than us, but they are still damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Out of interest, where was Button in relation to Massa's crash? Am I allowed to ask that, or do are we only allowed to condemn on this tread?

Drivers had to be past the accident zone in able to keep the speed up. Button was into the corner and did lift off at the scene. The yellow lights cam on after he passed the accident and the flags certainly never. Seen as he was past the scene he could keep his speed up.

Nope he saw the yellows. I've seen the on car camera, yellow clearly flashing at least 5 times before Button passed the light.

Apologies, you right, a couple of seconds before he arrived the lights came on.... and then he eased off...

Anybody think Mercedes have a chance at getting their highest position of the season tomorrow?

[ringo]

Then why did you say otherwise?

I can assume you may be fabricating that he eased off as well?

He didn't ease off, by what i saw and heard, he was faster than he ever was through that part of the track. No sign of reducing steering effort or sound of engine easing. He was going for it with the hopes he can get away with it.
No different than football, you play to the whistle.

Just admit there is a double standard. That's just how it is.

[Traction]

Then why did you say otherwise?

I can assume you may be fabricating that he eased off as well?

He didn't ease off, by what i saw and heard, he was faster than he ever was through that part of the track. No sign of reducing steering effort or sound of engine easing. He was going for it with the hopes he can get away with it.
No different than football, you play to the whistle.

Just admit there is a double standard. That's just how it is.

So the telemetry lies?unless of course the telemetry indicates he only backed off after the scene...