Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[Gerhard Berger]

yener - The reason Hill didn't win another WDC was because he was dumped and joined Arrows. Similarly Schumacher let Benetton in 1996 for Ferrari. Alonso left Renault for McLaren.

So that's three of your examples irrelevant, unless you expect Vettel to drive for someone else next year?

As others have commented, the common thread is the presence of Newey.

Spot on.

If Schumi stayed at Benetton for 96, he would have had a much better chance at the championship, and if Newey stayed at Williams in 97 and beyond then they probably would have had a championship challenging car in 98.

In this case, neither Vettel nor Newey (nor any other key member of staff) is leaving Red Bull. Whilst there are no massive changes in the rules, the only thing that could possibly bring the competition closer is the changes to the position of the exhausts.

[raymondu999]

I've been looking at statistics and if my maths is right, Vettel is already statistically the 9th best F1 driver of all time, just one behind Alonso and one ahead of Hakkinen.
At the end of his career Vettel is surely going to be remembered as one of the sports all time greats.

Hey Tyler; which stat are you basing this on? Too many possible angles to cover this one so just wanted to check which one you were working off. Laps lead? GP wins? Percentage of GP wins? Percentages of laps lead?

[Richard]

Tyler - there's another thread that looks at Vettel's stats ... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10745

[Tyler]

Sorry Raymondu, just realised how innacurate my assumption probably is, especially seeing as though the site where I got the stats is not up to date and probably not that reliable either.
I was taking championships won as the most important factor and then race wins and podiums, also trying to factor in percentage of race wins to gp's raced but you're right there's just so many factors to consider - if it is possible to work it out accurately, I'm certainly not qualified - still it's a bit of fun to try and do sometimes.
In any case, I'm sure his name will be up there with the greats if he continues to dominate like this.

[PlatinumZealot]

Sebastian Vettel wont win the championship next year. The reason i think this way is because

Schumacher Benneton: 1994+1995 after that it took him 5 years to become WC again.

Damon Hill, Villeneuve: 1996+1997. They had a really good car but the people in the paddock are not sleeping forever.

Mika Hakinnen, McLaren: 1998+1999 They had the best car on the most tracks but all things came to an end at the 2000 season

Fernando Alonso Renault: 2005+2006 Also not a 3thrd time in 2007


What im trying to explain is that most of the time, the domination of a team or driver ends after 2 years. The Schumacher Ferrari period is an exception.

Hmm. Interesting..

BUT

Sebastian Vettel: 2009 RB5, 2010 RB6, 2011 RB7.... so the car was good for 3 years straight.. We just have to wait and see if it will be for 5 years straight like MSC at Ferrari.

[mnmracer]

Sebastian Vettel wont win the championship next year. The reason i think this way is because

Schumacher Benneton: 1994+1995 after that it took him 5 years to become WC again.

Damon Hill, Villeneuve: 1996+1997. They had a really good car but the people in the paddock are not sleeping forever.

Mika Hakinnen, McLaren: 1998+1999 They had the best car on the most tracks but all things came to an end at the 2000 season

Fernando Alonso Renault: 2005+2006 Also not a 3thrd time in 2007


What im trying to explain is that most of the time, the domination of a team or driver ends after 2 years. The Schumacher Ferrari period is an exception.

Hmm. Interesting..

BUT

Sebastian Vettel: 2009 RB5, 2010 RB6, 2011 RB7.... so the car was good for 3 years straight.. We just have to wait and see if it will be for 5 years straight like MSC at Ferrari.

Though in that case, you can also add 2000 Hakkinen and 2007 Alonso, who were still fighting for the championship.

[PlatinumZealot]

I've been looking at statistics and if my maths is right, Vettel is already statistically the 9th best F1 driver of all time, just one behind Alonso and one ahead of Hakkinen.
At the end of his career Vettel is surely going to be remembered as one of the sports all time greats.

all in three years eh? Greats stats are mostly about a great car with a top driver. But it doesn't make great memories. And Great memories are what make Legends.

[mnmracer]

I've been looking at statistics and if my maths is right, Vettel is already statistically the 9th best F1 driver of all time, just one behind Alonso and one ahead of Hakkinen.
At the end of his career Vettel is surely going to be remembered as one of the sports all time greats.

all in three years eh? Greats stats are mostly about a great car with a top driver. But it doesn't make great memories. And Great memories are what make Legends.

How many great memories do we have of Alberto Ascari? Juan Manuel Fangio? Even Jim Clark? For most, those are just stories of how good they were (told in stats), not memories of an era most of us have not seen.

[PlatinumZealot]

So it is about numbers for you then, not about the memory.

I watch track and field right... Do you remember when Usain Bolt ran 9.69 (in zero wind)? Now do you remember when Tyson Gay Ran 9.69 (in maximum possible legal wind).
Same stat on the sheets but the difference is how they did it! That is what makes Legends.

For all we know the RedBull could be 2 seconds faster than the next car! hahaha..

[raymondu999]

For all we know the RedBull could be 2 seconds faster than the next car! hahaha..

Well that's the eternal problem of F1, isn't it? For all we know the HRT could be the fastest car on the grid; just that their drivers are too slow. For all we know the McLaren or Ferrari could actually be a second faster than the Red Bull

[PlatinumZealot]

Just saying.. a nice mix and match with rivals, struggles, battles, unbelieveable moves etc is what people will really remember.
What we do know at this moment is that Vettel can maximise his car and he is terribly consistent. Doesn't necessarily make the best sports icon to me. I thin you need some flare and a few thrills and spills. He needs more years before he can be called great.

Besides, even if we call him great, what are going to say? Greatest or great at what?

Great(est) rookie?
Great speed (we still don't know)
Great(est) thinker?
clever(est) driver?
Great oevertaker?

He needs to make some kind of name for himself apart from his car first. His car is too overshadowing. (Even MSC's car is not overshadowing his canny). We need to know what is Vettel's calling card. What separates him from Jenson Button or Sutil or Alonso etc.

[jamsbong]

Sebastian Vettel wont win the championship next year. The reason i think this way is because

Schumacher Benneton: 1994+1995 after that it took him 5 years to become WC again.

Damon Hill, Villeneuve: 1996+1997. They had a really good car but the people in the paddock are not sleeping forever.

Mika Hakinnen, McLaren: 1998+1999 They had the best car on the most tracks but all things came to an end at the 2000 season

Fernando Alonso Renault: 2005+2006 Also not a 3thrd time in 2007


What im trying to explain is that most of the time, the domination of a team or driver ends after 2 years. The Schumacher Ferrari period is an exception.

For a summary of year to year rule changes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... egulations

F1 engineers knows that the key is to adopt new rules and figure out the fastest package out of the new rules.
Example, Hakinnen's championship winning car was well-known for its huge downforce. That also coincide with the introduction of reduced grip groove tires.

The way I see it, 2012 is gonna be strong for Redbull. What I'm hoping to see is Mercedes challenging the throne as well... Fingers cross!

[CHT]

Sebastian Vettel wont win the championship next year. The reason i think this way is because

Schumacher Benneton: 1994+1995 after that it took him 5 years to become WC again.

Damon Hill, Villeneuve: 1996+1997. They had a really good car but the people in the paddock are not sleeping forever.

Mika Hakinnen, McLaren: 1998+1999 They had the best car on the most tracks but all things came to an end at the 2000 season

Fernando Alonso Renault: 2005+2006 Also not a 3thrd time in 2007


What im trying to explain is that most of the time, the domination of a team or driver ends after 2 years. The Schumacher Ferrari period is an exception.

the difference is the the past is that they didnt have engine development restriction, they had to deal with 2 different brands of tyres, there isnt much restriction on testing.

my guess is that vettel and rbr should dominate in the next 2 years until f1 switches to turbo engine.

[raymondu999]

Just saying.. a nice mix and match with rivals, struggles, battles, unbelieveable moves etc is what people will really remember.
What we do know at this moment is that Vettel can maximise his car and he is terribly consistent. Doesn't necessarily make the best sports icon to me. I thin you need some flare and a few thrills and spills. He needs more years before he can be called great.

Besides, even if we call him great, what are going to say? Greatest or great at what?

Great(est) rookie?
Great speed (we still don't know)
Great(est) thinker?
clever(est) driver?
Great oevertaker?

He needs to make some kind of name for himself apart from his car first. His car is too overshadowing. (Even MSC's car is not overshadowing his canny). We need to know what is Vettel's calling card. What separates him from Jenson Button or Sutil or Alonso etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Which is rare at best between you and me in terms of drivers, to say the least
All of what you says well and valid. I disagree that he hasn't shown great speed, but I guess we're better off agreeing to disagree there.

No one (at least I don't) ever remember the drives like India 2011. No one ever nostalgically talks about the way Prost (random example) took the lead from pole and was never challenged. It's more the Mansell's/Villeneuve's (Gilles, not Jacques) that get the plaudits. They get the nostalgic talks of how Mansell put a dummy on Piquet on the Hangar straight, how he passed whoever, etc.

It's excitement that gets you going, rather than dominance. Whether this is the defining factor of a great, is a judgment call. Everyone will have, in the back of their mind, their own definition behind the word

[jdlive]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

The guy in that other supposedly superior car is standing... 4th and has won how many races? Exactly.

It's pretty clear Vettel is the best driver out there, so what if he drives from start to finish in first place and doesn't have to overtake? The point of racing is to be the fastest, having to overtake means you are clearly not the fastest.

He also seems to be one of the few who IMPROVES, others seem to stagnate or even regress (Hamilton being a prime example).

Unless they --- up his car, we're going to see a Vettel-era. He's an improved Schumacher in every possible sense.