Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[raymondu999]

Actually Beelsebob - I think the RB6 is roughly about the same as the RB7; except the RB7 is a lot more well rounded. What the RB7 has in reliability; the RB6 had in pace and grip. Remember that save for Monza; Red Bull probably should've wrapped up all of 2010's pole positions; Lewis got pole in Canada by 2.5 tenths on options against Red Bulls on primes; and in Singapore; save for a small boo-boo by Vettel on the exit of the Singapore sling (fiddly rubbish chicane) probably Vettel should've nabbed pole.

If you factor in the reliability; and the pace; I think the RB6 and RB7 were roughly equal pieces to be honest

[Raptor22]

History is what it is, "What ifs" only serve to highlight ones contempt for history.

Ironic that you should try and re write history for this season then.

Don't be a tw*t. Grow up dude
I' ve not rewritten anything. McLaren created bad luck this year and that has affected their results period. That self created bad luck flatters the Red Bull results to some degree. The said what I said not to create a what if, but to illustrate that good luck plays a huge role in the statistics. The truelly dominant cars of the past did need much luck when e.g. the MP4/4 was 2 secs a lap faster than aFerrari F188. That was good luck created on the drawing board at McLaren, not by the hands of the opposition drivers. But who knows, perhaps he Ferrari actually was not as bad as it appeared. Your name sake was not the faster driver around and certainly was not consistent. Schumacher lapping a 412 t2 around Fiorano over a second lap faster then either he or Alesi could seems to indicate that the F188 was never raced with any real anger. But histroy shows the MP4/4 as the most dominat F1 car of all time.
Point is McLaren had a good car that was not maximised by its drivers. Who is to say they would have maximised a RB7?
These examples lend credibility to the notion that drivers are still capable of making a difference. Webber's excuses of not getting the Pirelli's to work aside, it is a set up issue that he was not able to get on top of. We all know Webber is quick. Always was, since his first lap in what was it, a Jaguar? Vettel beat a fast team mate and many other accomplished drivers in quality machinery.

While on the subject of RB7 reliability, was there not a lot of discussion about Reb Bulls unreliable KERS early in the year. What short memories we have...

Ray :> yeah sorry Bourdais not Grosjean <slaps forehead> I'd better not show my fce in France for a while :/

[Raptor22]

Webber was closer to winning the WDC last year than Vettel was until the last race unfolded..one has to acknowledge that something happened to swing the balance so seriously in favour of Vettel.

Yes,
1) Webber acknowledges that he can't get the Pirellis to work at all.
2) Psychology after seeing your best chance of winning the championship disappear.
3) Psychology after becoming WDC.
4) Vettel hasn't cocked up massively this year (this is the biggest improvement we've seen in him).
5) Red Bull's reliability has been utterly bullet proof (unlike last year).

Webber is living proof that a capable proven driver this year was not enough to even bag a win in RBR7.

No, in 2010, Vettel and Webber both struggled in an utterly dominant car to tie up the season. Go back and listen to any commentary from the end of that year – you'll find the commentators lambasting the two RBR drivers for not wrapping it up earlier.

In 2010, Vettel and Webber were both mediocre drivers in an epic car, in 2011 Vettel is improved, and driving on the same level as Alonso, Hamilton and Button, but still in an epic car, putting him way out in front.

LOL mediorce drivers....
Short memories again. Considering the amount of in fighting those got up to last year its no wonder they struggled to wrap up the title. And if I recall correctly thats what Brundle mentioned when he had a go at them.
Short memories again, Vettel at 24 is a Double World Champion with what 24 victories? This after 3,5 seasons in F1. Thats an achievement similar to Schumachers as well as a repeat.
2010 Indeed he was tense. Theres the chance to win a title, his first in F1. Same for Webber. No team orders, just one against the other. They let Alonso back into the championship. That does not make them mediocre, it makes them hungry and ambitious. It also made them tense.
Remove the pressure and Vettel has grown up and improved and Webber is struggling to come to terms with the new tyres.
Another sign o greatness, Vettel was one of the first driver to really get in tune with the new tyres and that helped him throughout the season.

[beelsebob]

LOL mediorce drivers....
Short memories again. Considering the amount of in fighting those got up to last year its no wonder they struggled to wrap up the title. And if I recall correctly thats what Brundle mentioned when he had a go at them.

Short memories? At what point has Webber ever challenged for a championship when he wasn't in an utterly dominant car?

Short memories again, Vettel at 24 is a Double World Champion with what 24 victories? This after 3,5 seasons in F1. Thats an achievement similar to Schumachers as well as a repeat.

Except that schumacher didn't drive 2 of his first 3 years in an utterly dominant car, and one more in a very-close-to-the-front car.

Remove the pressure and Vettel has grown up and improved and Webber is struggling to come to terms with the new tyres.

Agreed – Vettel has grown into being one of the very fast drivers on the grid, Webber has not.

Another sign o greatness, Vettel was one of the first driver to really get in tune with the new tyres and that helped him throughout the season.

Just like Button and Alonso then?

[Gerhard Berger]

Don't be a tw*t. Grow up dude

Excuse me? I'm not the one resorting to childish name calling.

I' ve not rewritten anything. McLaren created bad luck this year and that has affected their results period. That self created bad luck flatters the Red Bull results to some degree. The said what I said not to create a what if, but to illustrate that good luck plays a huge role in the statistics. The truelly dominant cars of the past did need much luck when e.g. the MP4/4 was 2 secs a lap faster than aFerrari F188. That was good luck created on the drawing board at McLaren, not by the hands of the opposition drivers.

Luck tends to be factors that are largely out of control of the drivers and cars so i struggle to see how Mclaren could "create" bad luck this season.

Point is McLaren had a good car that was not maximised by its drivers. Who is to say they would have maximised a RB7?

Same could be said for Red Bull. If they had truly maximised their results then one could make a case for them winning nearly all the grands prix this season.

These examples lend credibility to the notion that drivers are still capable of making a difference. Webber's excuses of not getting the Pirelli's to work aside, it is a set up issue that he was not able to get on top of. We all know Webber is quick. Always was, since his first lap in what was it, a Jaguar? Vettel beat a fast team mate and many other accomplished drivers in quality machinery.

You're right that Webber was quick right from the start, but i think you need more than that to be a consistent championship challengers. Lots of other drivers looked fast when they first started (e.g. Trulli, Fisichella, Frentzen) yet they were only able to grab a handful of wins in their career.

I do have to say though that Vettel's qualifying in comparison to Webber is very impressive. Webber had forged a reputation of somewhat of a qualifying specialist so for Vettel to dominante him so comprehensively in qualifying since 2009 is really impressive.

[raymondu999]

Though I have been a Vettel supporter since 2009; and a fan of his since his Formula BMW 2003 days; I think in retrospect it's hard to deny that he didn't shine much in 2010. We saw in China; Britain 2009 and Monza 2008 he had talent; but as a lot of people say; it's a lot harder when the pressure is on you and you're EXPECTED to be in that position. Webber needed an utterly dominant car to challenge for the title; and Vettel we could see was above average in 2010; but I don't think you could say much more.

Putting the 2011-spec Vettel in the RB6, however, would be quite a daunting prospect.

Actually beelsebob that's quite an interesting one you bring up - I think it was quite clear after a couple of races that Vettel had the tyres covered; but Alonso and Button didn't seem to shine to me in particular?

[mnmracer]

Short memories again, Vettel at 24 is a Double World Champion with what 24 victories? This after 3,5 seasons in F1. Thats an achievement similar to Schumachers as well as a repeat.

Except that schumacher didn't drive 2 of his first 3 years in an utterly dominant car, and one more in a very-close-to-the-front car.

Can someone finally explain to me why people always choose to ignore his Toro Rosso years?

[jdlive]

So no, we are not entering the "Vettel Era" because we haven't seen him be the determining factor in a team's overall success. Put him in a Lotus and see if he can push the team from the back to the midfield and beyond, consistently. We didn't see the "Alonso Era" because he kept jumping from team to team, not improving much from one to the other, and Ferrari is currently third in the constructors championship. Two WDCs does not make "an era".

Unfortunately it doesn't work anymore today with putting a top driver into a lousy car and make it faster.

MSC went to Ferrari and brought Ferrari back to the top. This was achieved through endless testing and massive amounts of money spent.

Today money is limited, especially for smaller teams, testing is banned, so innovation and development is slowed down. It can be clearly seen with MGP, Michael would not have lost his ability to build a team, to bring it back to the top end of the grid, but due to the outer circumstances he cannot succeed!

Put MSC, Ham, Vettel, Button, Alonso or whoever you want into a Lotus today and I'm sure they will not cut the mustard!

Weighing in a little late but here goes.
Schumacher was quick straight away. In a Mercedes Sports car they regularly asked him to slow down to preserve teh car.
IN teh Jordan he punted it high er up the grid that it regular drivers could. He was better able to gauge the cars strenghts and weaknesses than Gachot or that little Italian whose name escapes me. He regulalry beat all his teammates, from Piquet to Brundle to Herbert. The latter has openly admitted that the team gravitated toward Schumacher simply because he was good with the car and in it.
Heading over toFerrari, when Schumacher sampled the 412-T2 for the first time he took it around Fiorano faster than Alesi or Berger had ever taken it and that was in Imola spec!He said immediately that although the engine was peaky the chassis responded well to changes and could be adapted to cope with the V12. Schmacher lifted Ferrari's pace from the time the wheels turned.

He was in an ecelent car in 2002 and 2004 but look at 2003... the McLaren with Michelins was the thing to have and SChumacher still sniffed the championship out of nothing. McLaren and Raikkonen snatcheddefeat from the jawsof victory.


FF to Vettel. the kid and he is just about out of Kidniss now, was uber fast fromt he forst ime he got into a BMW F1 car. Hefoced Kubica to raise his game. His feedback directly helped BMW make the car faster.
His first season in a STR he showed he would be a problm for the front of the grid, in a year when the cars were producing more downforce than in even the groundeffect era. To ahieve that in mid pack mid funded car is astounding. Bourdais is not bad, he is excellent but he was overshadowed by Vettel. Thats life.
Derek Warick was fast but Ayrton Senna vetoed him fromjoining Lotus and that was the end of Warwock's career. We don;t talk about Warwick do we...

Lastly why do the utterly anal have to rip the pasion out of everything? Speakng of drver Era's is merely a metapor for describing periods in F1 histroy where a driver has left a mark on the business of F1. We speak of the Schumacher era but Hakkinen played a big part of it.

Is too early to speak of a Vettel era because he is so young. But heck I could not think of a better person todominate F1 for the next 10 years.

BTW, Schumacher is the only driver in history to have copeted through as many major rules changes and engine formula changes since Fangio. He is also the only driver from 1992 to 2004 to win a DWC n a car not designed by Adrian Newey.

Newey's Red Bull era is the first time he has deisgned a winning car without having he best engine on the grid.
HAs the RB7 been utterly dominatnt? Only n the hands of Vettel.

Exactly. People need to get that fanboyism out of their ass and look at the facts.

Of course the car matters, who has won a WDC in not the at least 2nd best car? This is a non-issue as it is a given always.

And Massa can hardly score points as he is systematically driven off by Hamilton

[jdlive]

From the get go you get the impression Vettel is just smarter than all the rest, and probably mentally less fragile as well. Intelligence is a major part of winning races, it's not all about "pure driving skill".

That's basically the opposite of a Lewis Hamilton who doesn't come across as the brightest bulb in the pack (let's be honest, the guy lacks intelligence to be an F1 hall of famer) and who seems to be easy to influence.

The only two guys I can realistically (purely driver-related) see compete with Vettel are Alonso and Schumacher. Both do not have the cars and one might be too old for the job.

Unless Ferrari get's their car sorted out, Vettel will have no competition just like he has now.

[raymondu999]

Of course the car matters, who has won a WDC in not the at least 2nd best car? This is a non-issue as it is a given always.

Technically... Technically... To be a pedant for the sake of it; Keke Rosberg won his WDC in the car that got 4th in the WCC

[jdlive]

Of course the car matters, who has won a WDC in not the at least 2nd best car? This is a non-issue as it is a given always.

Technically... Technically... To be a pedant for the sake of it; Keke Rosberg won his WDC in the car that got 4th in the WCC

Hehe. Well then one really should consider him for the best driver ever since that is quite a feat!

[raymondu999]

That was in that weird year (1982) when nobody won more than 2 races. There were 2 or 3 people who won 2 races each, and the rest only won 1. Keke only won 1 that year. But I digress.

[Gerhard Berger]

From the get go you get the impression Vettel is just smarter than all the rest, and probably mentally less fragile as well. Intelligence is a major part of winning races, it's not all about "pure driving skill".

That's basically the opposite of a Lewis Hamilton who doesn't come across as the brightest bulb in the pack (let's be honest, the guy lacks intelligence to be an F1 hall of famer) and who seems to be easy to influence.

The only two guys I can realistically (purely driver-related) see compete with Vettel are Alonso and Schumacher. Both do not have the cars and one might be too old for the job.

Unless Ferrari get's their car sorted out, Vettel will have no competition just like he has now.

I do agree that he seems very intelligent, but not about him being mentally less fragile. In previous years we saw that he can be quite mentally fragile, especially last year when Webber was challenging him.

I wouldn't dismiss Hamilton so quickly. He's been a championship challenger in 3 of his 5 years in F1. I'm sure he will recover from this bad season.

At the moment, Alonso seems best equipped to challenge Vettel (Ross Brawn also said as much) but like you said, it depends on the car that Ferrari produce.

[raymondu999]

Gerhard - I think probably though; the post-2010 spec Vettel is much more mentally resilient. What impressed me the most about him last year was the way he reacted to the Korean engine failure

Personally I see a lot of parallels between Button-Hamilton and Webber-Vettel. Everyone thought in 2009 that Webber would be thrashed by Vettel; and he sort of was, but they were kind of within striking distance of each other; like 2010 for the McLarens. In 2010 midseason Webber delivered several crushing performances that kind of left Vettel behind; and psychologically he was down in the dumps. Very similar to 2011 Lewis Hamilton

[jdlive]

From the get go you get the impression Vettel is just smarter than all the rest, and probably mentally less fragile as well. Intelligence is a major part of winning races, it's not all about "pure driving skill".

That's basically the opposite of a Lewis Hamilton who doesn't come across as the brightest bulb in the pack (let's be honest, the guy lacks intelligence to be an F1 hall of famer) and who seems to be easy to influence.

The only two guys I can realistically (purely driver-related) see compete with Vettel are Alonso and Schumacher. Both do not have the cars and one might be too old for the job.

Unless Ferrari get's their car sorted out, Vettel will have no competition just like he has now.

I do agree that he seems very intelligent, but not about him being mentally less fragile. In previous years we saw that he can be quite mentally fragile, especially last year when Webber was challenging him.

I wouldn't dismiss Hamilton so quickly. He's been a championship challenger in 3 of his 5 years in F1. I'm sure he will recover from this bad season.

At the moment, Alonso seems best equipped to challenge Vettel (Ross Brawn also said as much) but like you said, it depends on the car that Ferrari produce.

Well let's hope so for sure. But I'm afraid in practice he'll get himself another popstar and get in another racing career compromising relationship. (something again Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher would purposefully avoid) I'm sure he'll cause unnecessary crashes next year also, as well as give thoughtless interviews and all the other shabang.

I think if it were down to driving all in the same car and only having to do the steering/pedals, he would win most races. Unfortunately he's in the wrong motorsport class for that to be the case.