http://mobro.co/Beelsebob <-- already got mine growing. My photo on there is from the first day, I should really put an update on. Please feel free to donatemnmracer wrote:I'm not denying that either; I'm the stat-man, remember
But calling it 'biased sensationalism' is just so far out wrong, it irks me.
But worry not, I have my writing hat on again, and I've got a pre-pre-race read coming up.
Hmmm.... I'm thinking of growing a 'stache:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIMWudFLsaY
That parts just leaves a bitter taste and reeks of bias.mnmracer wrote:
What I find more interesting however, is looking at which car they drove. Both the Williams FW14B and the RB7 were designed by Adrian Newey, and both were considered the fastest car of that season. Even just looking at qualifying pace however, there is an enormous difference between the dominance of the two cars over the rest of the field. While second Williams-driver Riccardo Patrese relatively easily secured second place in the championship, Mark Webber has been playing catch-up most of this year, currently being in fourth place and needing a miracle to close the 19-point gap to Jenson Button in the last two races.
But that's race pace. With Webber at least securing 3 pole positions this year, the Red Bull must have great qualifying pace right? Well, yes, they have a good qualifying pace, but the numbers don't quite show what's going on there. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Mansell's poles and a non-Williams car was 2,8 seconds at the British Grand Prix, while the Williams was only not the fastest average car in 2 qualifyings. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Vettel's poles and a non-Red Bull car was 0,8 seconds at the Australian Grand Prix, while the Red Bull was not the fastest average car in 7 qualifyings.
In 1992, Nigel Mansell's average qualifying time was 1.1 seconds faster than the nearest non-Williams driver. In 2011, Sebastian Vettel's average qualifying time is only 0.2 seconds faster than the nearest non-Red Bull driver, who is more often than not in front of Webber. In 1992, the average qualifying time of the Williams team was 0.97 seconds faster, while in 2011, the average qualifying time of the Red Bull team is only 0.16 seconds faster. The advantage of Nigel Mansell's Williams was 6 times greater than that of Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull. If Mansell made a mistake, he could still train pole position, while a mistake on Vettel's end could have most often cost him that pole.
Not only are the guys much closer these days, but there's simply no reason to scamper off into the distance any more. In the old days, having a 30 second or 60 second lead used to be quite advantageous – it meant that if it rained, or if you span, you still had a nice big buffer. These days though, it means that you've thrashed your engine and gear box to hell, and you're now low on fuel.n smikle wrote:That parts just leaves a bitter taste and reeks of bias.
In the old days the gap was always bigger between the fastest cars. That 2.6 second lead of Mansel in quali would take you right to the back of the grid today, so no point in trying to normalise the two Newey cars. The fastest car is just the fastest car and a good driver will always maximise the fastest car - gaps don't matter.
To me, the big difference between the records is that Mansel needed less races to secure the 14 poles.
Q: Sebastian, let’s start with the simplest yet the biggest question: how was the season for you?
Sebastian Vettel: Well, indeed that is a question that demands digging deeper. One thing is for sure - such a year doesn’t come your way too often. It was a well-woven tale right from the beginning without a moment of buckling. The car never let us down - and we never let ourselves down. Sure, there were some small issues here and there, but we never ran into a bad-case scenario - nothing like that at all. (laughs) The major improvement over last season is that we have never been irritated by situations. Even if the boat started to rock we never stumbled - probably something that was not quite there last year.
Q: How would you describe the character of Kinky Kylie, your car?
SV: Faultless! The good girl behaved well and never made any trouble. (laughs) If there’s a secret to this season it is that we’ve taken it one race at a time. Even if it looked pretty good for us, right from the beginning we always went to the next race with the approach that we have to give the maximum again, never playing it safe.
Q: Was the feeling of a great season ahead there right from the very start, when you took the car on track for the first time at the Valencia test back in February?
SV: No, that was much too early, also because we needed some time to come to terms with the new tyres. There were so many question marks about the format of the races - some were thinking of up to five, even six pit stops - so no, nothing was clear in the first week of February. What became clear over the course of the season was that our car hasn’t been as dominant as it was in 2010, but what really made a huge difference was we - the people - have grown into one strong force. We have been much more stable and obviously have learned from our 2010 mistakes. It is funny to get comments after a successful race: you hear descriptions like ‘easy’, ‘walk in the park’ and so on - and it was definitely nothing of the sort at any race of the season. Every victory was hard fought and contrary to what people might think, it was closer, much closer than it looked from the outside. Everything had to come together - and that was what was so special, that we’ve managed to make it come together at so many races.
Q: When you look back at all the races you’ve won this year, which was the most special?
SV: There are probably three that stand out from all the rest. To win in the streets of Monaco is something very special - and the race itself was something of a curiosity. Before every race we have our strategic meeting where we try to predict the race as much as possible and set out strategies for the ‘if’s’ and ‘when’s’, and believe me, to think that we would only pit one time was never discussed as an option, because we simply didn’t believe it possible. In the end it turned out to be our only chance for a win - and surprisingly it worked! Something like that you’ll never forget. The win in Monza was also very special to me. To be on the podium again after three years, to be back on the same spot where I tasted F1 champagne for the first time, that was awesome. And personally the race in Singapore is very dear to me. I think it is one of the most difficult and demanding races of the whole season regarding concentration and after your work is done you definitely know what you’ve been doing the last two hours. (laughs) But these are just three very, very special moments in a very special season.
Q: Your appetite for trophies seems insatiable. Where does that come from?
SV: Ha, I have no idea - obviously it is a natural instinct after two hours’ hard work! (laughs) Even when I was a kid I always went home super satisfied when I was able to bring a trophy along - no matter how big or small. But that was not always so. I remember at my first ever win at a go-kart race I left the award ceremony very disappointed because I had seen on TV that all the ‘real racers’ - the Formula One heroes of that time - got laurel wreaths on the podium and I was fobbed off with a cup! I didn’t even want to take it home! But that changed pretty fast and I started collecting trophies religiously. And if you’ve been very good a whole season long there is one trophy that sticks out from all the others - the championship trophy. At the end of the day this is the one we’re really racing for. (laughs) The award ceremony and handover is very emotional.
Q: Let’s talk about emotions. What was your most emotional moment of the season?
SV: Two moments. Firstly the win in Monza, as it was where I won my first ever Formula One race, so to do it again was fantastic as it triggered some of the best memories. The podium there hovers partly over the track, partly over the pit lane, so you feel almost airborne and you see all the fans and have that amazing view almost to Curva Grande, far beyond the first chicane. I think life can hardly get any better than being up there. It is pure goose bumps and one or more tears! The second moment was - believe it or not - Korea. In Japan it was difficult to switch from finishing in P3 to having just won the championship - in that moment it was all quite unreal. But after the win in Korea it was the moment when I really internalized that I am the 2011 champion. With winning both championships in 2010 we proved that we know all the steps that it takes to win and the crucial thing this year was not to forget each of those steps - and we haven’t!
Q: What is the emotional high point after having won a race - crossing the finish line, speaking on the team radio with your guys, jumping out of the car and hugging your crew, stepping on to the podium? Which is it?
SV: …definitely the podium. You’ve done it, nobody can take it away from you, now you can relax and enjoy the moment. (laughs) The playing of the national anthem - when everybody quietens down out of respect - is the minute of a short reflection on the race before the elation and madness sets in. Later, all alone in your room - when everything is so quiet -you suddenly start to smile. First you don’t know exactly why, but then you understand that you have a good reason and you’re just happy.
Q: Are you a better driver now - after having won the title for a second time?
SV: Probably, yes. But the best thing about it is that you don’t have to prove anything anymore - because it shows that 2010 was not down to good luck on my side and bad luck on the side of the others.
Q: When you got back to your hometown, Heppenheim, they greeted you as their hero. How was that - again, after 2010?
SV: It was awesome. And it makes you a bit shy. I have grown up there, I went to school with so many of them, I have seen them all my life, so it is kind of strange - and very touching - that you have turned into some sort of hero. It was very special to see how many young kids were there and that Formula One has become so attractive for youngsters of the new media age. It was very satisfying to see that my sport can connect with new generations.
Q: You’ve been with Red Bull Racing for quite a while now. How would you say the team has changed over the years - and in particular Christian Horner’s role?
SV: That is a big question, indeed. Let’s go back to 2009. We found ourselves in a position where we had a very strong car, had been on the podium and won races, but we really didn’t understand how we did it when we did it, how to play with the ‘big boys’. (laughs) Since then we’ve learned so much, got much smarter and probably lost the awe for the big names - but never the respect for our competitors. Christian is playing a very important role to keep the team in harmony - to balance it - because only if you all pull together will you be successful. We are all working flat out to improve the car and the team - and get results - and that is all done with a fantastic team spirit, because it is not the product that you start the season with that brings success, but the product that you have at the end of the season after many months and many races.
Q: Looking into the crystal ball, who would you say you fear most for 2012?
SV: There is definitely not one driver I would highlight because we are living in a Formula One era where you don’t have one challenger but many - with different strengths and weaknesses. (laughs) That much I can say. McLaren were very strong this year with both drivers - Jenson (Button) and Lewis (Hamilton). It probably wasn’t the easiest year for Lewis, but that doesn’t mean that this will also go for 2012. Fernando (Alonso) with Ferrari will definitely be there and I also have Mercedes on the list, with two great drivers. And never forget Mark (Webber). So I will drop not one name, but many names. That’s my opinion.
mnmracer wrote:Most pole positions in a season – the record in two perspectives
While it became pretty obvious early on in the season that Sebastian Vettel would probably become world champion again, a much more interesting fight was going on between Vettel and a long-retired driver: Nigel Mansell. In 1992, in the superb Williams FW14B, Nigel Mansell managed a record-breaking 14 pole positions in one season. A record no one even came really close to in the next two decades. Until 2011, when Sebastian Vettel started from pole position in 7 of the first 8 races.
At the qualifying for the 2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel finally managed to get that magic number: pole position number 14. With the race in Brazil still on the calendar, Vettel will be able to break Mansell's record, but for now, he has equalled it.
Note #1: the number of races
There are two notes to this record however, the most obvious being: in 1992 there were 16 races, while Abu Dhabi is race 18 in 2011. Nigel Mansell managed 14 pole positions in just 16 races in 1992, while in 2011, it took Sebastian Vettel 18 races to get his 14th pole of the season. If you look at it purely numerically, Mansell has the better record in this. However, dismissing Vettel's equalling of Mansell's record purely on this ground, is a little short-sighted, because it also works the other way around. Juan Manuel Fangio grabbed 6 out of 8 pole positions in 1956. How many poles could he have gotten if he had 16 races like Nigel Mansell? This is not saying that such records are completely bogus; they are not. Given the circumstances of that year, these drivers managed an amazing feat, which resulted in 14 pole positions in one long season.
Note #2: the speed of the car
LINK: Table of qualifying time differentials
What I find more interesting however, is looking at which car they drove. Both the Williams FW14B and the RB7 were designed by Adrian Newey, and both were considered the fastest car of that season. Even just looking at qualifying pace however, there is an enormous difference between the dominance of the two cars over the rest of the field. While second Williams-driver Riccardo Patrese relatively easily secured second place in the championship, Mark Webber has been playing catch-up most of this year, currently being in fourth place and needing a miracle to close the 19-point gap to Jenson Button in the last two races.
But that's race pace. With Webber at least securing 3 pole positions this year, the Red Bull must have great qualifying pace right? Well, yes, they have a good qualifying pace, but the numbers don't quite show what's going on there. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Mansell's poles and a non-Williams car was 2,8 seconds at the British Grand Prix, while the Williams was only not the fastest average car in 2 qualifyings. In 1992, the biggest difference between one of Vettel's poles and a non-Red Bull car was 0,8 seconds at the Australian Grand Prix, while the Red Bull was not the fastest average car in 7 qualifyings.
In 1992, Nigel Mansell's average qualifying time was 1.1 seconds faster than the nearest non-Williams driver. In 2011, Sebastian Vettel's average qualifying time is only 0.2 seconds faster than the nearest non-Red Bull driver, who is more often than not in front of Webber. In 1992, the average qualifying time of the Williams team was 0.97 seconds faster, while in 2011, the average qualifying time of the Red Bull team is only 0.16 seconds faster. The advantage of Nigel Mansell's Williams was 6 times greater than that of Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull. If Mansell made a mistake, he could still train pole position, while a mistake on Vettel's end could have most often cost him that pole.
In conclusion
Working with statistics, means working with variables and margins. It is common that some tracks are better suited to a car than others, whether it's 1992 or 2011. Simply saying: Mansell only took 16 races, thus his record is worth more, is missing the bigger picture. Had the British and German Grand Prix for instance been raced at the end of the season, Vettel would have had 14 out of 16. Had Nigel Mansell's season been 18 races long (where we're at now), and there were two races in the middle of the season that didn't suit him, he would have had the same result as Vettel. With just two races difference in a sport where every track means a different advantage or disadvantage, it is statistically irrelevant to say that Mansell's record is worth more because of the number of races.
If anything, Vettel's record could be considered worth more because he did not have the massive advantage that Mansell had over the other cars. The Red Bull was never 3 seconds faster in qualifying than the McLaren or the Ferrari, as it often came down to a few tenths at most. The Williams FW14B was lightning fast at every track, while Vettel managed pole positions at a number of tracks where the Red Bull was not the fastest car. Nigel Mansell managed 14 pole positions in 1992 because he could afford to make mistakes. Sebastian Vettel managed 14 pole positions in 2011 because he never made a mistake.
Mark Webber was also considered to be a midfield journeyman, and was never considered top notch the same way Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are. You say that Boutsen made Patrese look good, well we can say the same about Webber - perhaps the likes of Coulthard, Pizzonia and Klien made him look good?Raptor22 wrote: The other factor to consider when reviewing the record is to consider who was in the other car. Ricardo Patrese was never considered to be top notch F1 driver. A good journeyman he was. He only once managed to take the fight to Mansell in their time together at WIlliams. Only having Thierry Boutsen as teammate made him look good. Mark Webber is fast, aggressive and a tough racer. A much more hardy campaigner was pitched against Vettel than Mansell.
If we consider that the average pace the RB7 was quicker than the average of teh opposition, and we review Vettels pace over Webber's it becomes obvious that the difference has been created by the driver/car combination rather than just the car.
I think the number of races is completely relevant. Vettel had more races in which to break the record.The number of races is irrelevant because the quality of competition in 2011 is much higher than it was in 1992. That makes the Vettel achievement worht more in my book than Mansell's.
If we cast back to 1992, Alain Prost was sitting out the year after being fired by Ferrari for comparing his type 643 to a bus. Senna was in a McLaren MP4/6 with a dog heavy, gas guzzling V12 bolted to the back. If lacked active suspension for much of the year and the semi auto box was a problem and seldom raced. The FW14B was by far the most sorted out car on the grid, by a long way.
Actually, Coulthard beat him in 07. Coulthard was never the greatest driver (much as I like him), but still happily kept up with Mark, so yeh – your general point, that Webber isn't a top notch driver is absolutely right.Gerhard Berger wrote:Mark Webber was also considered to be a midfield journeyman, and was never considered top notch the same way Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are. You say that Boutsen made Patrese look good, well we can say the same about Webber - perhaps the likes of Coulthard, Pizzonia and Klien made him look good?Raptor22 wrote: The other factor to consider when reviewing the record is to consider who was in the other car. Ricardo Patrese was never considered to be top notch F1 driver. A good journeyman he was. He only once managed to take the fight to Mansell in their time together at WIlliams. Only having Thierry Boutsen as teammate made him look good. Mark Webber is fast, aggressive and a tough racer. A much more hardy campaigner was pitched against Vettel than Mansell.
If we consider that the average pace the RB7 was quicker than the average of teh opposition, and we review Vettels pace over Webber's it becomes obvious that the difference has been created by the driver/car combination rather than just the car.
Wow, are we rewriting professional opinions on drivers now. Webber, never considered to be a in he league of a Senna, or Prost, but he is a pretty good modern day Mansell.Gerhard Berger wrote:Mark Webber was also considered to be a midfield journeyman, and was never considered top notch the same way Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are. You say that Boutsen made Patrese look good, well we can say the same about Webber - perhaps the likes of Coulthard, Pizzonia and Klien made him look good?Raptor22 wrote: The other factor to consider when reviewing the record is to consider who was in the other car. Ricardo Patrese was never considered to be top notch F1 driver. A good journeyman he was. He only once managed to take the fight to Mansell in their time together at WIlliams. Only having Thierry Boutsen as teammate made him look good. Mark Webber is fast, aggressive and a tough racer. A much more hardy campaigner was pitched against Vettel than Mansell.
If we consider that the average pace the RB7 was quicker than the average of teh opposition, and we review Vettels pace over Webber's it becomes obvious that the difference has been created by the driver/car combination rather than just the car.
Patrese's 1992 is not too dissimilar to Webber's 2011 - they both failed to show the true dominance of their car. Patrese's season was slightly better - he did manage 1 victory, and 2nd in the championship, though the Mclaren's and Schumacher were not far behind. There are still similarities strong similarities though.
The difference in 92 was also created by a car/driver combination. Please don't underrate Mansell's season.
I think the number of races is completely relevant. Vettel had more races in which to break the record.The number of races is irrelevant because the quality of competition in 2011 is much higher than it was in 1992. That makes the Vettel achievement worht more in my book than Mansell's.
If we cast back to 1992, Alain Prost was sitting out the year after being fired by Ferrari for comparing his type 643 to a bus. Senna was in a McLaren MP4/6 with a dog heavy, gas guzzling V12 bolted to the back. If lacked active suspension for much of the year and the semi auto box was a problem and seldom raced. The FW14B was by far the most sorted out car on the grid, by a long way.
Mclaren wasn't as bad as you claim - it did manage to win 5 races after all.
Yep, there are three types of drivers out there:raymondu999 wrote:To be fair Raptor Webber needed a dominant car to challenge for the title. He was never slow though. Inconsistent yes, but speed was never his problem. In the past, at least
Not rewriting opinions, just stating my own. Whilst Webber's racing mentality may be similar to that of Mansell, i don't think he is a match for Mansell in terms of ability. Patrese would seem to be a closer match. Mansell won multiple races with different cars and challenged for the championship on a number of occassions. The same can not be said about Webber.Raptor22 wrote:Wow, are we rewriting professional opinions on drivers now. Webber, never considered to be a in he league of a Senna, or Prost, but he is a pretty good modern day Mansell.Gerhard Berger wrote:Mark Webber was also considered to be a midfield journeyman, and was never considered top notch the same way Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are. You say that Boutsen made Patrese look good, well we can say the same about Webber - perhaps the likes of Coulthard, Pizzonia and Klien made him look good?Raptor22 wrote: The other factor to consider when reviewing the record is to consider who was in the other car. Ricardo Patrese was never considered to be top notch F1 driver. A good journeyman he was. He only once managed to take the fight to Mansell in their time together at WIlliams. Only having Thierry Boutsen as teammate made him look good. Mark Webber is fast, aggressive and a tough racer. A much more hardy campaigner was pitched against Vettel than Mansell.
If we consider that the average pace the RB7 was quicker than the average of teh opposition, and we review Vettels pace over Webber's it becomes obvious that the difference has been created by the driver/car combination rather than just the car.
Patrese's 1992 is not too dissimilar to Webber's 2011 - they both failed to show the true dominance of their car. Patrese's season was slightly better - he did manage 1 victory, and 2nd in the championship, though the Mclaren's and Schumacher were not far behind. There are still similarities strong similarities though.
The difference in 92 was also created by a car/driver combination. Please don't underrate Mansell's season.
I think the number of races is completely relevant. Vettel had more races in which to break the record.The number of races is irrelevant because the quality of competition in 2011 is much higher than it was in 1992. That makes the Vettel achievement worht more in my book than Mansell's.
If we cast back to 1992, Alain Prost was sitting out the year after being fired by Ferrari for comparing his type 643 to a bus. Senna was in a McLaren MP4/6 with a dog heavy, gas guzzling V12 bolted to the back. If lacked active suspension for much of the year and the semi auto box was a problem and seldom raced. The FW14B was by far the most sorted out car on the grid, by a long way.
Mclaren wasn't as bad as you claim - it did manage to win 5 races after all.
He's quick and drives with head and heart.
He can win a WDC if the circumstances are right.He was never dog slow as his debut in a Jaguar in Australia in the early 2000's prove's. He has run a slow well at Monaco (William's) and pretty much kept Coulthard honest at Red Bull.
He is still considered to be cut from higher quality cloth than Patrese, or Boutsen.
However if running Webber down to suit your arguement is the tactic ou chose to folw remember it will bite you on the behind in another thread..
