Jos Verstappen: "Schumacher used TC in 1994"

[LionKing]

So deliberately hitting your rival in the title decider and doing it in a premeditated fashion makes you a respected driver if you are Senna ( without even giving his racing skills a chance)

When Schumacher does it he is a cheat. At least he didn't plan it beforehand and tried to race...

[manchild]

Senna was already ripped from one title by FIA presided by JMB, without having done anything illegal.

In the next season, FIA replaced grid positions in Suzuka after he had already won pole position. He had asked them no to do that to him.

FIA refused, he warned in advance that he'll crash into Prost's car as he was pushed into corner. They didn't listen, so he got down low on FIA level as it was the only way to fight back. What else was he supposed to do, allow them to treat him like trash for the second consecutive season, or stand up and say NO PASSARAN?

I repeat - Senna warned in advance what he'll do if they continue with change of grid positions because it was in favor of driver who qualified second.

MSC was never mistreated by FIA, like Senna was twice. MSC was favored by FIA and he never warned that he'll try to fight injustice by only possible mean left, simply because there was no injustice ever done to him by FIA, especially not at those occasions when he crashed Hakkinen, Hill, Villeneuve, and when he parked in Monaco.

Senna's move on Prost was a dirty move, but it was instigated by FIA's dirty move.

Sometimes, when all the calls for fair-play, sanity and common sense fail, even the most ethical people must get down at the level of villains, in order to be able to prevent them in their vicious intentions.

[wesley123]

That is just bs, plain bs nothing more.

What you are saying is, well if someone hits me and then gets penalized after that I am allowed to kill him. That is simply what you are saying and we all know that isnt the case.

As for the third video shown Senna pushing Prost towards the wall, why is that okay and when schumacher does it to barrichello it is a problem? Can you explain to me why it is okay for Senna to do that and not for Schumacher?

I like Senna, but to say his moves are okay compared to Schumacher, nooooo waaaay.

[manchild]

As for the third video shown Senna pushing Prost towards the wall, why is that okay and when schumacher does it to barrichello it is a problem? Can you explain to me why it is okay for Senna to do that and not for Schumacher?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncj4WL8C8eE[/youtube]

Yet again, it was instigated by what was previously done to Senna, by Prost, at the very same race.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zznJjSncGCE[/youtube]
When someone is mistreated and fights back in the same way, it is obviously not the same thing as initial occurrence - Barrichello hasn't pushed MSC.

[strad]

This is funny...MOST who feel driving has gotten out of hand, feel it started with Senna and then Schumacher pushed the limits even further.
But topic isn't about dangerous driving...Since Senna dirty driving isn't considered cheating.
However I assure you by any measure that knowingly running with TC or LC when they are banned is just plain cheating.
It is intersting that prior to Senna dangerous driving often amounted only to antics such as Black Jack dropping a wheel off track to throw some dirt up onto the track.

[strad]

By the way...It was Prost who when he tired of Senna turning into him said if he did it again he would not try to avoid him.

[gridwalker]

I wouldn't necessarily place the blame solely on Senna as Piquet wasn't exactly an on-track angel, however that generation as a whole pressed their luck more than previous generations could have ever done.

[Giblet]

Hmm Senna never drove into an opponent on purpose to win the championship

It could also be looked it as revenge for the year before, couldn't it? There was no 100% fault either way.

89 Senna attempted a pass, and Prost turned in on him.
90 Senna had pole on the dirty side,and Prost got away better. Prost held his line, and turned in on him as Senna held his line as well. Neither yielded, each time, yet it makes Senna the cheater?

To me that is not on the same level as someone parking their car purposefully on a course to affect everyone else's qualifying, or trying to take out someone who has just passed you like JV.

None of this is ever cut and dry really, but the perceived cheating of MS spans over a much longer period and career.

[GTSpeedster]

So... revenge over a supposed injustice committed can be regarded as a license to bend and distort any concept about what should be right or wrong...

Interesting morals there.

[raymondu999]

89 Senna attempted a pass, and Prost turned in on him.
90 Senna had pole on the dirty side,and Prost got away better. Prost held his line, and turned in on him as Senna held his line as well. Neither yielded, each time, yet it makes Senna the cheater?

Im saying this outside of the Schumacher debate, but that makes them both cheaters. Was Senna doing that to Prost *almost* morally justified due to the events of '89? Perhaps. Was it poetic justice? Most definitely. But both were still incidents of cheating.

Because someone else does something wrong, it still doesnt make the retaliation "right"

[Giblet]

I'm not justifying Senna's actions, but they happened under the umbrella of racing and with the help of another participant involved. Cars touching and blocking and driving unfair is situational and it is racing, even if it is dirty and unfair and over the top.

To realize you are going to lose quali and park your car on the course like a bad soccer dive, to me, is not the same thing. It is not in the scope of racing. It is in the scope of cheating. There was no other participant. He just simply, off the cuff or premeditated, decided to cheat by blocking all cars from getting another lap immediately after pole. I think he figured it would look better, but it was so obvious and feeble in the video that a 7x WDC was parking the car. There was no locked brakes. He was in control of the whole thing.

He made a mental and moral decision, more than once, to actually cheat. He can cheat in Monopoly if he wants. Senna can't get run into by Prost in a game of Monopoly. This is why I view them as different.

Please don't take my honest view of these events as love or hate for a drive. I am calling what I have seen and have logical reasons for them.

[Tyler]

Senna was just as much as a cheat as Schumacher.
As Lionking said maybe Senna's actions were even worse because they were already planned out before the race began.
Senna was very open about it to, pretty much saying that if they put him on that side of the track that's what would happen.

Schumacher by contrast let his competitive nature get the better of him in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps this is a stupid comparison but I've made some really shocking moves in my f1 2011 career, bashing and brake testing my competitors, not because I set out to cheat but just that in that split second my competitive nature got one over my conscious mind.

Why is Schumi, always picked on? - never Senna
Or what about Prost and his dispicable actions?
On the racetrack he was a gentleman maybe but off it he was anything but.
Mansell wouldn't stay in the same team as him and he blocked Senna from joining Williams, knowing that if he did he would most likely be beaten.
That's cheating to me!
But Prost and Senna are still the good guys and Schumi's the baddie.

What about Alonso's actions? Spy-gate, crash-gate? holding up his team mate in the pit lane and preventing him from getting another qualifying lap in?
He's got away with it scot-free too.
His behaviour at McLaren in 2007 was nothing short of disgusting - you can't say that Schumacher has ever blackmailed the team owner!
Alonso was like a big spoiled baby at McLaren in 2007.
What about Vettel taking Webber's front wing - is that fair? is that good sportsmanship?

Unfortunately, very often being the best means having an ultra competitive nature which leads you to do stupid things in the heat of the moment.
I think we just have to accept that these things will sometimes happen and that the FIA should be there to police these sort of things.
You cannot take away from Schumi's achievements when his peers have been less than perfect too.

[Giblet]

The thread is about Schumacher and his alleged TC and LC in 1994. That is why this thread focuses on Heir Schumacher, and not Prost, Senna, Alonso, or Dan Gurney. I don't know if Dan Gurney ever cheated or not, but drawing a comparions to him is just as useful.

The problem is nobody can keep their driver passions and allegiances out of the discussion.

To discuss Schumacher's 'cheating' it can and should be taken on its own. Telling me what Senna did does nothing to change MS's black marks, and it won't.

The amount of planning and deception involved in having hidden TC and LC on a car reflects on the entire team at the time. Flavio or MS was unable to sneak in to the shop at night and fiddle with the programming of the ECU. They were also unable to just remove a filter from a fuel rig. This took planning and took a many people in the organization to cheat. It was part of the culture of the team at the time, and much of the sport. This is the opposite of 'heat in the moment'. Its the 1st degree murder charge to the manslaughter charge.

Now we had Senna and Verstappen, two drivers who felt something amiss. One had suspected cheating (Senna) by race 2 in 1994. There was smoke, and there was fire. Verstappen's comments seem to mirror what _everyone_ was saying about the car at the time. This is not some new thing to come out. Those who watched the races remember clearly.

[manchild]

The most important add-on for f1technical should be "Age verification". I'm not saying that all youngsters are not worth debating with, but many of them aren't, and so, I'd really love know that when mature adults are debating about certain issues, and when a teen is fanboying a thread.

Senna was just as much as a cheat as Schumacher.
As Lionking said maybe Senna's actions were even worse because they were already planned out before the race began. Senna was very open about it to, pretty much saying that if they put him on that side of the track that's what would happen.

actions? that is more than one, like a couple, several or many as in MSC career. So, is that a typo, english not being your native language, or something else?

Senna made a big dirty move only once, as a revenge, in turn 1 @ Suzuka, after being ripped for one title in previous season, and about to be ripped for another, as I've explained in one of my previous posts, while Schumacher turned crashing rivals into his brand-name.

Schumacher by contrast let his competitive nature get the better of him in the heat of the moment.

No, Schumacher has no competitive nature. He has Machiavellian nature, a goal and no ethical obstacles in his personality that would prevent him in achieving what he intends to. Being competitive in a sport, means being ready to fight fair with your skill, not cheating and most of all, not reaching for endangerment of rivals life without blinking, just to achieve the goal.

Nothing "gets him in the heat of the moment", his is cold and calculated, while his actions are premeditated. When he realizes that rival will beat him, he turns into villain without scruples (Hakkinen 1990, Hill 1994, Villeneuve 1997, Alonso 2006, Barichello 2010...). Those are moments of his "heat", when he shows inability to accept the defeat, and does things which a decent person wouldn't even think of.

Why is Schumi, always picked on? - never Senna...

Probably because F1 connoisseurs, F1 journalists and F1 drivers are not as smart as MSC fanboys.

[flynfrog]

The most important add-on for f1technical should be "Age verification". I'm not saying that all youngsters are not worth debating with, but many of them aren't, and so, I'd really love know that when mature adults are debating about certain issues, and when a teen is fanboying a thread.

and we could keep out the senile old hippies who are so stuck in there point of view they feel the need to post it in every single thread then belittle those who don't share the same view. [-o<