Maldonado sponsorship for Williams

[gridwalker]

Did ANYONE have an issue with British American Tobacco's interest in motor racing? They are one of the few western corporations that circumvent economic sanctions on the Burmese Junta, but everyone simply accepted Lucky Strike and 555 liveries.

F1 is no stranger to dirty money : Chavez has nothing on the abuses of the Myanmar Generals.

As for my personal boycott list, it is too long to put in full but includes such notable companies as :
Nestle
Microsoft
Apple (or any company using Foxconn components)
Knorr
Sarah Lee
Caterpillar
Ben & Jerrys
Coca Cola
McDonalds
Starbucks
Vodafone
Marks & Spencer
Etc, etc, etc ...

[Giblet]

Gridwalker, what kind of computer did you type this on?

Because if it has a motherboard, a video card, or a display, it was likely assembled in Foxconn. Just curious because if it is Acer, Amazon, Apple, ASRock, Asus, Barnes & Noble (Nook), Cisco (Linksys), Dell, EVGA, Intel, IBM, Lenovo, Microsoft, MSI, Motorola, Netgear, Nintendo, Nokia, Panansonic, Samsung, Sharp, Sony Ericsson, or Vizio it was made in the same factories.

Also, Foxconn is an assmbler. They don't make components. They assemble them into devices.

Apple is the only one in that list other than Nokia to actively work to improve conditions and pay in these factories. Its too bad that all the negative media doesn't actually look past the words 'Chinese labor'.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-1 ... cides.html

They have been regularly auditing their operations for years, but now pay someone else to do it completely open and transparently.

Just saying you might want to rething or reposition your boycott, or stop using electronics.

If you have managed to source an entire computer not made from Foxconn at all, then I am impressed to say the least as it is not easy to do and requires actively hunting the parts down.

[Pup]

Not to mention that Foxconn itslef is one of the better companies in China for worker conditions.

I can see both sides of the argument - Apple is a big name and has the most power with Foxconn, which in turn is the biggest employer in China, so it makes sense to push them to make things better.

On the other hand, it seems more than a bit hypocritical to boycott the company that's doing the most to effect change.

My suspicion is that the issue mainly comes up as a proxy for people who dislike Apple for other reasons.

I'm curious about some of the other companies on the list - I boycott a lot of them myself, but only because I don't eat sugar or crappy coffee.

[wesley123]

Not to mention that Foxconn itslef is one of the better companies in China for worker conditions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/f ... hina/all/1
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/busin ... wanted=all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824

I think these articles tell otherwise. I have no idea about other companies in China, but the fact that they hung up 'suicide nets' to make sure that the workers who jump off it dont die, I think these say enough about both working conditions as well as conditions outside of it.

[Pup]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not going to argue that things are peachy-keen. But again, I think the reporting there was overblown. The one sentence in the Wiki article says a lot...

With over 800,000 employees, Foxconn's suicide count is actually lower the Chinese national average of 22.23 per 100,000.

And faulting them for taking the actions that their critics want? Again, hypocritical is the word I'd use.

For me, I think this recent article probably presents the issue in the fairest light...

http://blog.laptopmag.com/labor-activis ... ing-enough

To paraphrase - "They're doing the right things, but we wish they'd do more and do it faster."

Fair enough.

[beelsebob]

Not quite sure what position this has on an F1 tech forum, but just to reinforce the position of pup and Giblet...

The media are screaming because 7 suicides happened.
They are also screaming because 2 fatal accidents happened.
They are also screaming because they pay people $17 a day.

To put these in perspective:
7 suicides at their plant in a year is a suicide rate of only 3 per 100,000 – this is less than one sixth of the US's suicide rate, and less than one tenth of the chinese rate.
The fatal accident rate at Foxconn is 3.5 deaths per 100,000 – this is the exact same as the rate in the UK and US. When you consider that foxconn is 100% manufacturing, and the UK/US are largely office jobs, this seems pretty bloody good.
Consider that the average wage around the Foxconn factory is $5 a day... Now consider what would happen to the economy if these people were paid more than their already very-large-for-the-area wages. What do you think would happen if shops had a source of people earning $100 a day? Do you think the people on $5 a day would be able to survive? In short – foxconn is paying its workers enough that they live very well in their region, but not enough that they demolish the economy and force everyone else to starve.

This is why hundreds of thousands of people are willing to work in these conditions – because they're actually pretty good conditions.

[beelsebob]

Not to mention that Foxconn itslef is one of the better companies in China for worker conditions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/f ... hina/all/1
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/busin ... wanted=all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824

I think these articles tell otherwise. I have no idea about other companies in China, but the fact that they hung up 'suicide nets' to make sure that the workers who jump off it dont die, I think these say enough about both working conditions as well as conditions outside of it.

Does it? The empire states building has suicide fences and netting... Does that tell you something about the US?

[Hail22]

We are all going off topic, this is about Williams and Maldonado not Foxconn...

[Giblet]

Not to mention that Foxconn itslef is one of the better companies in China for worker conditions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ctory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/f ... hina/all/1
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/busin ... wanted=all
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824

I think these articles tell otherwise. I have no idea about other companies in China, but the fact that they hung up 'suicide nets' to make sure that the workers who jump off it dont die, I think these say enough about both working conditions as well as conditions outside of it.

The suicide rate inside the factories is lower than in the rest of China. North American universities have higher rates. This was made very public, so they, Foxconn, put up nets. Not Apple.

Take a 900,000 strong workforce, and see how many suicides you get. Its not zero.

The problem is the simple scale of the operation, but we still have people throwing 2 year old links around like its happening right now.

[Giblet]

We are all going off topic, this is about Williams and Maldonado not Foxconn...

Yes you are correct. We got here talking about countries with corrupt conditions and Chavez.

Back on the path.

[Pup]

We are all going off topic, this is about Williams and Maldonado not Foxconn...

True, but it points to the fact that these things aren't always simple. I don't care a lick for Chavez - not one bit, so I guess I'm lucky that I wasn't a fan of Williams beforehand.

Both situations also highlight the fact that it's a lot less easy to sweep these things under the rug when they're thrust into the light by such high-profile organizations like F1 or Apple.

[Shrieker]

This argument about the money being pumped into F1 being dirty ultimately boils down to the whole monetary system sucking. Are you against the system ? Then put your money where your mouth is. Are you not against the system ? Then no problems there, enjoy. Everything in this world ranging from politics, to industry, to arts, sports, medicine, to penal systems is tainted by dirty money of this sort or that, and F1 has fair share of it.

So why point the finger to WilliamsF1 now and blame them ? It'd be hypocritical. That, or you don't know the world we're living in.

[bhall]

(All one has to do, really, is look at Syria and Bahrain during the last year, and then take a peek at Iran, North Korea and Cuba during the last, well, forever, to see that the kind of political isolation created by those who don't want to soil their hands with tainted money has very little effect on those who actually taint the money. It's the citizenry of those nations who suffer, because their tainted leaders have a very distinct habit of taking care of themselves first and foremost.)

I hold nothing against Williams for taking money from wherever it comes. It's a business thing, pure and simple. And they put bread on the tables of their employees.

As for whoever decided Pastor Maldonado is somehow worth US$46M, well, that's a different story, and said individual probably needs to have his/her head examined. There are drivers in F1 right now who have résumés - or CVs for my European friends - as long as my (shhh!) who don't earn that much for themselves.

Then again, a good orthodontist can be very pricey these days.

[raymondu999]

As for whoever decided Pastor Maldonado is somehow worth US$46M, well, that's a different story, and said individual probably needs to have his/her head examined. There are drivers in F1 right now who have résumés - or CVs for my European friends - as long as my (shhh!) who don't earn that much for themselves.

Pastor is not worth 46M. But his sponsor could be paying that much for his seat.

[bhall]

Thus implying that Pastor Maldonado is worth US$46M to someone.