Mercedes thinks Red Bull is using illegal engine trick

[elf341]

Brawn is now becoming saint daring to point out his finger based on sound of another car?!

This man has no shame at all. After what he has done during 1994. followed by his Ferrari days and DDD exclusivity for his own team.

Perhaps someone could "eardrop" to recordings of B194, and check what MoSSley fixed up in his favor over the years.

There's a lot of pissed people out there, and some just might be in position and have power to launch investigation of events that took place during MoSSley's regime, beginning with season 1994.

Everyone has their allegiances and their biases - there's no shame in that.

But I think you are being a bit naive if you believe that Ross Brawn is the only one to push the envelope regarding rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if every winning car of the last 15 years was only winning because of the extra edge provided by a borderline-legal/technically-illegal device.

[manchild]

My point is that when in threads about B194 like recent with Verstappen's statement, someone mentions that Senna and other people in the paddock suspected that B194 was illegal because of it's sound (TC), than we get salves of "Shut up, FIA did not find anything".

Now, when Brawn or whoever from his current team says that there is something illegal on RB8, same people who shut us up on B194, expect us to accept such claims despite no evidence at all.

That is hypocrisy.

Some people in F1 have infamous history, and they should be the last with right to raise voice demanding truth and honesty from others.


Yes, in 2009. DDD exclusivity was given to Japanese manufacturers in order to prevent their abandoning F1 due to crisis. That is why Honda was given clearance to develop car on DDD, Toyota too, including Williams since they were supplied with Toyota engines, while other teams who had it were said that it is illegal. "Strangely", in 2009. Todt leaves Ferrari to become president of FIA, Brawn buys Honda team like it was an icecream, and wins both championships with previous season's back-marker team. In 2008 Honda scored 14 points, in 2009 172 points, dominating whole season. Such thing has never happened in F1 before, nothing even similar. Now, those titles can be engraved in gold and approved by God, but it will stink on fraud just as 1994 still does and ever will.

[siskue2005]

Does the 10% throttle rule apply on a per-cylinder basis, or does it cover the whole engine? I am just wondering if it is possible to take the fuel required to run the whole engine at 10% thottle but reduce the number of cylinders that receive the total amount of fuel.

My crude maths says that it would be equivalent to running those two cylinders at 40% throttle (though that would be thrown out if the flow rate is non-linear, so don't hold me to that).

If this is the case, would it make much difference to power output or gas volume produced?

Discuss.

is that illegal?

[Hangaku]

"If something sounds too good to be true, it normally is ..."

The engine sounds too good to be true, therefore it's all a lie and RedBull / Renault are cheating. Again.

I would also suggest that this is a well time statement from Ross Brawn, considering the recent reports of RedBull and Ferrari getting into bed with Bernie Ecclestone. I would suggest that this sort of news is going some way towards helping FOTA's cause amongst the various other parties.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ Gridwalker

Im not sure on the physics, but shutting down 4 cylinders and then using the excess fuel to burn in the other chambers will probably produce a higher exhaust flow.
The FIA had a look at the modes and deem it legal apprently, thats the latest.

Expect Ferrari and Mercedes to follow suit along with RB/Sauber style exhausts.

[JimClarkFan]

Haven't Red Bull been up to engine trickery for some time now. I heard in both 2010, and 2011, that it was thought Red Bull were doing something 'special' with their engine during qualifying, even compared to other the teams with Renault engines.

[munudeges]

....and there were some people who said sound analysis of engines didn't go on and didn't exist...........

[.poz]

@ Gridwalker

Im not sure on the physics, but shutting down 4 cylinders and then using the excess fuel to burn in the other chambers will probably produce a higher exhaust flow.

I think that shutting down 4 cylinders you have to make the engine to run faster to get the same power out of it. Engine running faster = more exhausts

[SeijaKessen]

My point is that when in threads about B194 like recent with Verstappen's statement, someone mentions that Senna and other people in the paddock suspected that B194 was illegal because of it's sound (TC), than we get salves of "Shut up, FIA did not find anything".

Now, when Brawn or whoever from his current team says that there is something illegal on RB8, same people who shut us up on B194, expect us to accept such claims despite no evidence at all.

That is hypocrisy.

Some people in F1 have infamous history, and they should be the last with right to raise voice demanding truth and honesty from others.


Yes, in 2009. DDD exclusivity was given to Japanese manufacturers in order to prevent their abandoning F1 due to crisis. That is why Honda was given clearance to develop car on DDD, Toyota too, including Williams since they were supplied with Toyota engines, while other teams who had it were said that it is illegal. "Strangely", in 2009. Todt leaves Ferrari to become president of FIA, Brawn buys Honda team like it was an icecream, and wins both championships with previous season's back-marker team. In 2008 Honda scored 14 points, in 2009 172 points, dominating whole season. Such thing has never happened in F1 before, nothing even similar. Now, those titles can be engraved in gold and approved by God, but it will stink on fraud just as 1994 still does and ever will.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed it.

I suppose because it's Schumacher people are willing to look the other way regarding the hypocrisy of both Schumacher and Brawn given their infamous record of cheating for the entire season.

Everyone connected to MoSSely receives a special multi-use get out of jail free card.

I have no problem with Red Bull being looked into if they are running a trick with their Renault engine, but the sources of the complaints are comedy gold.

[SeijaKessen]

Brawn is now becoming saint daring to point out his finger based on sound of another car?!

This man has no shame at all. After what he has done during 1994. followed by his Ferrari days and DDD exclusivity for his own team.

Perhaps someone could "eardrop" to recordings of B194, and check what MoSSley fixed up in his favor over the years.

There's a lot of pissed people out there, and some just might be in position and have power to launch investigation of events that took place during MoSSley's regime, beginning with season 1994.

Everyone has their allegiances and their biases - there's no shame in that.

But I think you are being a bit naive if you believe that Ross Brawn is the only one to push the envelope regarding rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if every winning car of the last 15 years was only winning because of the extra edge provided by a borderline-legal/technically-illegal device.

I think when the rules are restrictive enough that a race series begins becoming closer to a spec race, you are inadvertently opening a door for the rules to be stretched or broken...since the slightest advantage can mean important fractions of a second. Kind of like the advantage gained by the use of traction control or modified refueling rigs. You're looking at times that are .8 to 1.3 seconds per lap with traction control...modified refueling rigs (even though they don't refuel currently) can add maybe .3 seconds. It all adds up slowly over many laps and can result in being a 1 minute ahead of the 2nd place or 3rd place driver. Easy to cruise to victory when your only competition is a few miles back or dead.

[aduka11]

Brawn is now becoming saint daring to point out his finger based on sound of another car?!

This man has no shame at all. After what he has done during 1994. followed by his Ferrari days and DDD exclusivity for his own team.

Perhaps someone could "eardrop" to recordings of B194, and check what MoSSley fixed up in his favor over the years.

There's a lot of pissed people out there, and some just might be in position and have power to launch investigation of events that took place during MoSSley's regime, beginning with season 1994.

Everyone has their allegiances and their biases - there's no shame in that.

But I think you are being a bit naive if you believe that Ross Brawn is the only one to push the envelope regarding rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if every winning car of the last 15 years was only winning because of the extra edge provided by a borderline-legal/technically-illegal device.

I think when the rules are restrictive enough that a race series begins becoming closer to a spec race, you are inadvertently opening a door for the rules to be stretched or broken...since the slightest advantage can mean important fractions of a second. Kind of like the advantage gained by the use of traction control or modified refueling rigs. You're looking at times that are .8 to 1.3 seconds per lap with traction control...modified refueling rigs (even though they don't refuel currently) can add maybe .3 seconds. It all adds up slowly over many laps and can result in being a 1 minute ahead of the 2nd place or 3rd place driver. Easy to cruise to victory when your only competition is a few miles back or dead.

Can you please skip this thread with your story...of Schumacher and Mosley (who is as you say grandson of Musolini and Hitler) being Nazi soliders and stuff which got prevous thread locked cuz of that post...

You dude.....have some serious issues..

Now back on topic...

How come less cilinders make same amout of power?

[SeijaKessen]

I said nothing of that nature in my post just now. Stop making false accusations, thanks.

I was simply stating that the more restrictive rules become in racing, or even life, people tend to start pushing back against them more and more. Fractions of a second are everything in a race...everyone is trying to find the magic bullet...some teams are willing to push beyond the envelope if they think they won't get caught.

NASCAR (spec race) always has multiple incidents every season with illegal modifications being found on various cars.

[raymondu999]

Nope - that's in Pig Latin

[Dragonfly]

Now back on topic...

How come less cilinders make same amout of power?

Who says they need power? Maybe they need exhaust gas volume. Retarded ignition was banned but no ignition spark at all wasn't. And the driver might open the throttle with his foot more than the minimum set for automatic throttle control.

[E86]

Yeah, you can definitely hear a different exhaust note from the Red Bull. I have not noticed with the Lotus or Williams. I am not on one side or the other, but it would be interesting to know what they are doing from a technical stand point. I love the technical aspects of racing. That is probably why i am studying to be a Race Engineer.