Driver styles/preferences

[JimClarkFan]

That sounds incredibly ignorant...

for starters, one does not simply change one's driving style. If that were true, button would never complain that his setup isn't quite right, he would just alter his driving style to match.

Also, racing drivers are competitive. If they felt it were possible to change their driving style and they felt that doing so would make them more competitive, they would do it in an instant. Think about the lengths they go to to gain every tenth, or even every hundredth or thounsandth of a second. Button's style clearly suits the Pirellis more. It is not a matter of pride. Again: One does not simply change one's driving style.

If he did mimic button's style, of course he would be slower; its not natural at all to be doing that. But he's got pace. He has outqualified button, and I believe inherently he is the faster driver. He just burns out his tyres quicker in the race. He is still competetive and able to win races, though I think the pirellis closed the gap between the 2 a bit, at least in race.

It might sound ignorant, but it is still what I believe, you can take that with a pinch of salt because I have never driven a F1 car.

Nevertheless I believe a person with very good car control can adapt to a style that requires less car control, i.e. Hamilton mimicking buttons, but I don't think a person who has a lower level of car control can somehow level up and adopt a style that requires more car control i.e. Button mimicking Hamilton.

I think the ability of a person to adapt to a different driving style depends on the outright natural talent of the driver. You can adapt down, but you can't adapt up with great ease up as it where.

[scuderiafan]

I found an interesting quote. It was James Allison on the Lotus steering issues, and how Kimi likes his steering set-up.

"We’re making progress in this area, but the way Kimi drives the car is to find the limit on the front axle and then adjust the car very delicately around that limit; he can only do that if the steering is giving him exquisite feedback"

[bhall]

[...] I believe a person with very good car control can adapt to a style that requires less car control, i.e. Hamilton mimicking buttons, but I don't think a person who has a lower level of car control can somehow level up and adopt a style that requires more car control i.e. Button mimicking Hamilton.

I don't even think you can necessarily say that Hamilton has more "car control" than Button, because they display their comparable abilities so very differently. For another thing, such a statement just assumes that Hamilton is a better driver.

Without wishing to pry open a colossal can of worms, passively consider the following:

Lewis Hamilton has driven a McLaren V8. Jenson Button has driven Benetton/Renault, Williams, and Honda V10s (with a test in a Prost) as well as Honda/Brawn and McLaren V8s. (For the purposes of this discussion, the specific engine manufacturers are immaterial.) That is a relative plethora of cars, each with very different characteristics, from which to draw valuable experience that Lewis Hamilton simply does not have. For that reason alone, I don't know that it's wise to make simple-minded judgments one way or the other.

[JimClarkFan]

[...] I believe a person with very good car control can adapt to a style that requires less car control, i.e. Hamilton mimicking buttons, but I don't think a person who has a lower level of car control can somehow level up and adopt a style that requires more car control i.e. Button mimicking Hamilton.

I don't even think you can necessarily say that Hamilton has more "car control" than Button, because they display their comparable abilities so very differently. For another thing, such a statement just assumes that Hamilton is a better driver.

Without wishing to pry open a colossal can of worms, passively consider the following:

Lewis Hamilton has driven a McLaren V8. Jenson Button has driven Benetton/Renault, Williams, and Honda V10s (with a test in a Prost) as well as Honda/Brawn and McLaren V8s. (For the purposes of this discussion, the specific engine manufacturers are immaterial.) That is a relative plethora of cars, each with very different characteristics, from which to draw valuable experience that Lewis Hamilton simply does not have. For that reason alone, I don't know that it's wise to make simple-minded judgments one way or the other.

I know they are very different drivers however I feel that Jenson needs a well balanced car to be fast because he doesn't like the car underneath him dancing around. See my post here on what I think about Jenson (my fav driver) viewtopic.php?t=12259

[jdlive]

That sounds incredibly ignorant...

for starters, one does not simply change one's driving style. If that were true, button would never complain that his setup isn't quite right, he would just alter his driving style to match.

Also, racing drivers are competitive. If they felt it were possible to change their driving style and they felt that doing so would make them more competitive, they would do it in an instant. Think about the lengths they go to to gain every tenth, or even every hundredth or thounsandth of a second. Button's style clearly suits the Pirellis more. It is not a matter of pride. Again: One does not simply change one's driving style.

If he did mimic button's style, of course he would be slower; its not natural at all to be doing that. But he's got pace. He has outqualified button, and I believe inherently he is the faster driver. He just burns out his tyres quicker in the race. He is still competetive and able to win races, though I think the pirellis closed the gap between the 2 a bit, at least in race.

It might sound ignorant, but it is still what I believe, you can take that with a pinch of salt because I have never driven a F1 car.

Nevertheless I believe a person with very good car control can adapt to a style that requires less car control, i.e. Hamilton mimicking buttons, but I don't think a person who has a lower level of car control can somehow level up and adopt a style that requires more car control i.e. Button mimicking Hamilton.

I think the ability of a person to adapt to a different driving style depends on the outright natural talent of the driver. You can adapt down, but you can't adapt up with great ease up as it where.

I agree entirely. If Hamilton was as good as proclaimed, he would be able to adapt. Other top drivers WERE or ARE able to adapt, enough said.

[raymondu999]

I'd think that other than the nuances of how good a driver can feel entry/exit/apex grip, surely a driver can copy the motions another driver does if he has complete telemetry, no?

[bhall]

I know they are very different drivers however I feel that Jenson needs a well balanced car to be fast because he doesn't like the car underneath him dancing around. [...]

Hamilton has been as successful as his McLaren will allow; no more, and no less. I don't feel like that's an overly-critical statement, either. But, the fact remains that he is the most sheltered driver on the grid. Such a factor tends to give credence to any opinion anyone has on the subject, because it's nearly impossible to reasonably quantify his merits one way or the other.

At any rate, that's why I don't assume as a given that Hamilton somehow has more "car control" than his teammate or anyone else.

EDIT: That first post was a helluva an introduction to our dysfunctional band. Welcome.

[JimClarkFan]

I'd think that other than the nuances of how good a driver can feel entry/exit/apex grip, surely a driver can copy the motions another driver does if he has complete telemetry, no?

This is my feeling too.

I know they are very different drivers however I feel that Jenson needs a well balanced car to be fast because he doesn't like the car underneath him dancing around. [...]

Hamilton has been as successful as his McLaren will allow; no more, and no less. I don't feel like that's an overly-critical statement, either. But, the fact remains that he is the most sheltered driver on the grid. Such a factor tends to give credence to any opinion anyone has on the subject, because it's nearly impossible to reasonably quantify his merits one way or the other.

At any rate, that's why I don't assume as a given that Hamilton somehow has more "car control" than his teammate or anyone else.

EDIT: That first post was a helluva an introduction to our dysfunctional band. Welcome.

That is true, I am judging this based solely of him at Mclaren, it would be better if he had a more diverse team history.

And thanks.

[raymondu999]

At any rate, that's why I don't assume as a given that Hamilton somehow has more "car control" than his teammate or anyone else.

I think what JimClarkFan meant is - the drivers who drive with a more "sting like a bee" style, like a Lewis or old-spec Schumi would, wagging the tail around; could probably more easily adapt to the "float like a butterfly" style that Button/Trulli employ.

[bhall]

I understand his point, and it's not exactly an unreasonable one at that. I just don't agree with it.

Hamilton, and Schumacher for that matter, both built their reputations in great cars, and that makes it difficult to really put their overall performance in perspective, because we've seen them both struggle with relatively bad cars. That's even more the case with Hamilton, as he's been in one situation throughout his entire career.

[Pierce89]

At any rate, that's why I don't assume as a given that Hamilton somehow has more "car control" than his teammate or anyone else.

I think what JimClarkFan meant is - the drivers who drive with a more "sting like a bee" style, like a Lewis or old-spec Schumi would, wagging the tail around; could probably more easily adapt to the "float like a butterfly" style that Button/Trulli employ.

I can understand what you're getting at, but I think this whole thread is built on the idea that Lewis is superior to Button rather than the differences in their driving styles.Lewis certainly hasn't proven any superiority to Button during their time as teammates. Maybe Lewis can manhandle a bad car better than Jenson, but where have we seen anything to prove that. For the fisrt half of 2009, Lewis looked just as lost as Jenson ever did in any of the plethora of bad Hondas he drove. All we really know about their differences are: Jenson admits that he NEEDS a stable rear end and that Lewis wrecks more.

[Lycoming]

For sure Hamilton has adapted his style somewhat to suit the current range of tyres. But I don't think its reasonable to expect him to go full Button on that wheel.

[marcush.]

I understand his point, and it's not exactly an unreasonable one at that. I just don't agree with it.

Hamilton, and Schumacher for that matter, both built their reputations in great cars, and that makes it difficult to really put their overall performance in perspective, because we've seen them both struggle with relatively bad cars. That's even more the case with Hamilton, as he's been in one situation throughout his entire career.

Schumacher struggled with w01 and w02 - but before? I think he delivered above the cars capabilities more often than not .Interestingly his early Teammate Brundle was quite close at times ,but then Marty also had his days against Senna in F3 ..
I think both Schumacher and Hamilton really need a car tyre combo allowing to exploit the outer rim of adhesion with a tendency to slightly overdo it ,call it traction or grip sampling all the time.
Button and rosberg seem to need less of an agressive approach for grip sampling maybe they judge grip simply differently .

[PlatinumZealot]

That sounds incredibly ignorant...

for starters, one does not simply change one's driving style. If that were true, button would never complain that his setup isn't quite right, he would just alter his driving style to match.

Also, racing drivers are competitive. If they felt it were possible to change their driving style and they felt that doing so would make them more competitive, they would do it in an instant. Think about the lengths they go to to gain every tenth, or even every hundredth or thounsandth of a second. Button's style clearly suits the Pirellis more. It is not a matter of pride. Again: One does not simply change one's driving style.

If he did mimic button's style, of course he would be slower; its not natural at all to be doing that. But he's got pace. He has outqualified button, and I believe inherently he is the faster driver. He just burns out his tyres quicker in the race. He is still competetive and able to win races, though I think the pirellis closed the gap between the 2 a bit, at least in race.

It might sound ignorant, but it is still what I believe, you can take that with a pinch of salt because I have never driven a F1 car.

Nevertheless I believe a person with very good car control can adapt to a style that requires less car control, i.e. Hamilton mimicking buttons, but I don't think a person who has a lower level of car control can somehow level up and adopt a style that requires more car control i.e. Button mimicking Hamilton.

I think the ability of a person to adapt to a different driving style depends on the outright natural talent of the driver. You can adapt down, but you can't adapt up with great ease up as it where.

I agree entirely. If Hamilton was as good as proclaimed, he would be able to adapt. Other top drivers WERE or ARE able to adapt, enough said.

Paul Hembery said that he has adapted.
Simply by looking at the way he treats the Pirrellis Hembry should know, I think.

He had no problems warming up the tyres in Qualifying.
His race pace was similar to button's in AUS, but he took longer to warm up the tyres at that time - 6 laps in fact. It's obvious he was driving gentler than before and trying too hard at it, with bad results.

[PlatinumZealot]

I understand his point, and it's not exactly an unreasonable one at that. I just don't agree with it.

Hamilton, and Schumacher for that matter, both built their reputations in great cars, and that makes it difficult to really put their overall performance in perspective, because we've seen them both struggle with relatively bad cars. That's even more the case with Hamilton, as he's been in one situation throughout his entire career.

Schumacher struggled with w01 and w02 - but before? I think he delivered above the cars capabilities more often than not .Interestingly his early Teammate Brundle was quite close at times ,but then Marty also had his days against Senna in F3 ..
I think both Schumacher and Hamilton really need a car tyre combo allowing to exploit the outer rim of adhesion with a tendency to slightly overdo it ,call it traction or grip sampling all the time.
Button and rosberg seem to need less of an agressive approach for grip sampling maybe they judge grip simply differently .

Marchush, I think Rosberg is not similar to Button. I think he is similar to Schumacher. There are pretty similar drivers. I would even go as far as to say Rosberg is more aggressive on the tyres than the cobbler from all the evidence I seen so far.