Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

If you think senna was at fault for the crash, then there is not point in debating this with you marcush.

"even Villlenuve thinks".... Since when does Villlenuve become the official mouthpiece of the sport?
Bottom line is Schumacher was at fault, and the official line of the FIA is that he was at fault for the senna crash.
Hence the grid penalty.

If you rear ended someone on the road, in a race, on a track day or on the highway.... It's your own fault. It was proven senna didn't move in the braking zone.
With this mentality that everything Schumacher does is perfect, it's no surprise the rhetoric on these pages have descended into farce, not you personally marcush, I'm generalising.

[zyphro]

There's no such thing as "a rough patch", when it comes to unreliability. We are in an era where, what Schumacher is experiencing RARELY happens.

Someone is not doing their job correctly; a clear sign of incompetence.

[marcush.]

If you think senna was at fault for the crash, then there is not point in debating this with you marcush.

"even Villlenuve thinks".... Since when does Villlenuve become the official mouthpiece of the sport?
Bottom line is Schumacher was at fault, and the official line of the FIA is that he was at fault for the senna crash.
Hence the grid penalty.

If you rear ended someone on the road, in a race, on a track day or on the highway.... It's your own fault. It was proven senna didn't move in the braking zone.
With this mentality that everything Schumacher does is perfect, it's no surprise the rhetoric on these pages have descended into farce, not you personally marcush, I'm generalising.

C´mon I did never say Schumacher is perfect .The pictures shown on TV don´t tell the whole story as Senna was weaving on the straight ...
My point was Villeneuve was nbever a fan of Michael and still he has the balls to tell the truth .Senna is not up to it but still he defended on --- up tires which was complete and utter nonsense instead of pitting and accepting the race as it unfolds.

But back to the team.The tirades are well deserved and mind you this is nothing compared to what will be heard behind closed doors in MGPs headquarters after Mrs Brawn and Haug have got their heads leveled by Mr.Zetsche...Mercedes is not
nice to those who do not deliver what was written down as target .I know.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

It was ms fault marcush, it was sennas right to defend and Schumachers responsibility to brake.
Regardless of whom had which tyre.
Mercedes can do with their investment how they choose, but they will not pull the plug IMO. Rosberg is less that a victory margin away from the championship lead for crying out loud.
When has that ever been the case for MGP after 7 races?

[Raptor22]

If you think senna was at fault for the crash, then there is not point in debating this with you marcush.

"even Villlenuve thinks".... Since when does Villlenuve become the official mouthpiece of the sport?
Bottom line is Schumacher was at fault, and the official line of the FIA is that he was at fault for the senna crash.
Hence the grid penalty.

If you rear ended someone on the road, in a race, on a track day or on the highway.... It's your own fault. It was proven senna didn't move in the braking zone.
With this mentality that everything Schumacher does is perfect, it's no surprise the rhetoric on these pages have descended into farce, not you personally marcush, I'm generalising.

Ah you live in a black and white world. Its safe there isn't it.
One of my chums father inlaw is an insurance accessor for a large Insurance company. He specialises in MVA (motor vehicle accidents) and he said it never as clear cut as "driving into the back of someone. The law (and this is similar in most countries where Roman Dutch law is the foundation of the legal system) says that the person to the rear has the responsibility to keep clear however the driver in front has to be act in a responsible manner.
So if you brake test someone behind you, you are at fault. If you change lanes and the car in your blind spot or any car already occupying that lane and not clear of your vehicle has right of way. You the car changing lanes has the responsibility to change lanes safely and keep clear.
In the case of Senna vs Schumacher, Schumacher was in Senna's tow. Senna moved to cover then back onto the racing line. The 2nd move caught Schumacher out and resulted in Schumacher not being able to slow down because he was braking later and positioning his car for the inside line for Turn 2. Senna's fault if the rules are applied consistently but they were not. The driver steward viewed the incident in terms of keeping clear so Schumacher should actually have driven himself into wall rather than stay on the line which he had every right to do. Apparently if your name is Schumacher different rules are applied to you. Now its not that Schumacher is a saint, but rather the double standards that's applied because Hamilton or Rosberg can get away with driving others off the track (Bahrain) but if it was Schumacher there'd be a penalty of sorts that will be engineered to hamper his next race. In some parts of the world they call it racism...(omg strong word, probably going to result in the deletion of this post)

Coulthard also had a lot to say about Schumacher's late braking overtake on Kobayashi, sort of alluding to Schumacher running him wide deliberately and not thinking that two cars braking late is going to result in one or both going wide. A classic example of "if Schumacher is involved its his fault". Its probably similar petty mindset at Mercedes that results in the disparity in quality of the preparation of the two Merc's. Rosberg afterall, is Finish and its just"unfortunate" he carries a German passport so therefore he is exempt. It's similar to the rubbish Hamilton has been subjected to from time to time.
The only positive is that cream always rises to the top no matter how hard you try to keep it at the bottom of the cup.

If Mercedes Benz AG have any desire for fair play and safety to exist in their premier motor racing team then we should see some heads roll at Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 pretty soon. I hope it starts with Brawn (cue disciples of the church of Brawn, architect of all things impossible)
I for one am deeply concerned because Le Mans 1955 lives very strongly in the motorsport archives of Mercedes Benz. They may as well close their doors if an accident claims the life of Schumacher, and involves a failure of a component on a Mercedes Benz W03. If I was Schumacher I would not bother getting back into that car. Anything can fail on it and statistics say it will. He has a lot more to live for than loyalty to people who have none to him.

[zyphro]

...

I agree, there will be some serious talking behind closed doors. Imagine, another component fails in the next race and Schumacher has a serious crash.

How do you think the German public will take it? Mercedes will be carefully judging their position in F1 and so would Schumacher.

[marcush.]

It was ms fault marcush, it was sennas right to defend and Schumachers responsibility to brake.
Regardless of whom had which tyre.
Mercedes can do with their investment how they choose, but they will not pull the plug IMO. Rosberg is less that a victory margin away from the championship lead for crying out loud.
When has that ever been the case for MGP after 7 races?

JET ...it´s over ..Schumacher is on top of his game or as good as one could hope but the team does not deliver what is necessary to bag the points.FACT
Mercedes not Schumacher has thrown away 50% of their points this year .
They are damn lucky it´s a lottery these days and they can focus the lucky bit on his car -same as 2 years ago when Rosberg kept into the championship hunt due to circumstances (RedBull trying to find out how many possibilities to mess up races races do exist ).
there is absolutely no reason to defend them these days -they bagged a double championship and laid off a lot of important workforce selling the core as a championship contender to Daimler completely ripping of Stuttgart ,coming up with two mediocre cars in a row as a result.Now they show that their race team is uncapable to produce reliability for both cars on a consatnt basis .so what about their announcement to restructure ..so they nneed to restructure ..again ??? ..This is all a farce ,an utter farce.Rosbergs Championship hopes are hanging on a hair -pure luck not competence or claculated risk.
They do suck -sad as it is .I was a big fan of the idea but this is just too much.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

And its a FACT Schumacher has screwed up at times in his career at Mercedes.
Rear end shunting seems to be his forte, but running former team mates into walls is also seemingly acceptable to his defenders.

(RedBull trying to find out how many possibilities to mess up races races do exist )

So you jump on Mercedes back but then write this of Red Bull? The leading outfit of F1 for the last 2-3 years?
Seems to me if something goes wrong that automatically makes you incompetent, a clown or an idiot(some of the phrase used).
That is plain bullshit i'm afraid.

As is this argument that Mercedes are inept.

I'm going to say it now, as Schumacher die hards forced me too....the sooner Schumacher leaves Mercedes the better off the team will be.
Fickle natured fans with no patience makes me lose my own.

[marcush.]

Now it´s schumachers fault.of course it is.he should know how to drive a car after all those championship wins..I´m fully aware that I miss the boat here by some margin ,but so you do JET.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Now it´s schumachers fault.of course it is.he should know how to drive a car after all those championship wins..I´m fully aware that I miss the boat here by some margin ,but so you do JET.

Have I at any stage called Schuamcher useless? an Idiot or a clown? Or apportioned blame to him than is otherwise due? OOOoooooh heaven forbid eh....

[mep]

The tirades are well deserved and mind you this is nothing compared to what will be heard behind closed doors in MGPs headquarters after Mrs Brawn and Haug have got their heads leveled by Mr.Zetsche...Mercedes is not nice to those who do not deliver what was written down as target .I know.

I just hope you are right marcush. But these days people say they don't have a blaming culture anymore, meaning useless people can get away with everything they do. But it is Mercedes name which is written on the car. The staff of the team does not care about when Mercedes or Schumacher's image gets destroyed. It is rather amusing for them. Again I am not speaking about the head of the team, like Brawn or Schumacher's race engineer, but about the lower level employees. Somebody assembles these cars and obviously is absolutely careless about quality control. It can't be a structural or design flaw otherwise it would happen on Rosberg's car too.
Would anybody here sit in a plane which is assembled by these guys?
Some of their arses need to be ripped and then kicked out. Otherwise they don't learn their lessons.
Seriously a F1 car is a actually a quite simple machine and there is no reason why a high reliability is not possible to achieve with these days regulations.

[zyphro]

The tirades are well deserved and mind you this is nothing compared to what will be heard behind closed doors in MGPs headquarters after Mrs Brawn and Haug have got their heads leveled by Mr.Zetsche...Mercedes is not nice to those who do not deliver what was written down as target .I know.

I just hope you are right marcush. But these days people say they don't have a blaming culture anymore, meaning useless people can get away with everything they do. But it is Mercedes name which is written on the car. The staff of the team does not care about when Mercedes or Schumacher's image gets destroyed. It is rather amusing for them. Again I am not speaking about the head of the team, like Brawn or Schumacher's race engineer, but about the lower level employees. Somebody assembles these cars and obviously is absolutely careless about quality control. It can't be a structural or design flaw otherwise it would happen on Rosberg's car too.
Would anybody here sit in a plane which is assembled by these guys?
Some of their arses need to be ripped and then kicked out. Otherwise they don't learn their lessons.
Seriously a F1 car is a actually a quite simple machine and there is no reason why a high reliability is not possible to achieve with these days regulations.

+1

[bhall]

[...]

Seriously a F1 car is a actually a quite simple machine and there is no reason why a high reliability is not possible to achieve with these days regulations.

Therein lies the crux of the majority of this thread, especially for those who somehow think Mercedes' lack of success is a conspiracy.

I think Schumacher's success with Ferrari has tricked a whole lot of fans into thinking that F1 is easy and that Schumacher is God's gift to grand prix racing. Neither of those could be much further from the truth.

It took the combined talents of Schumacher, Todt, Brawn, Byrne and a whole host of supporting characters five years to turn around Ferrari, a team/company with a significantly richer heritage in Formula 1 than both Mercedes and its F1 team's various permutations. And during that time they had free reign to test as much as they pleased wherever they pleased; they operated under a formula with far fewer restrictions; and they had a tire company whose sole purpose was to supply Ferrari-specific rubber. That's not to mention the fact that Schumacher was much younger, and he was paired with a teammate who was always expected to lay down for "the greater good."

Not one of those things is true now. Moreover, F1 is more competitive than it's ever been; the difference between marvelous success and agonizing failure has never been so narrow. It's so tight that teams are even working like mad to pick up tenths during pit stops. All the low-hanging fruit has been picked or banned, so teams really have to reach to find something that will bring them a competitive edge. That's precisely why Mercedes introduced the Daffy Duct, an innovation of questionable benefit. It's because something is better than nothing.

I understand the frustration over silly mistakes and curious blunders. McLaren fans do, too. Their team plays Pit Stop Roulette every race. Ferrari fans can certainly relate. The Prancing Horse historically has two modes of operation: perfection and laughable, with very little in between. Stupid things happen in F1; they always have, and they always will.

All of this is to say, please stop with the paranoid delusions that Mercedes is deliberately hampering Schumacher for nefarious reasons. That's the sort of sentiment one would expect to hear being bandied about amongst a throng of social outcasts wearing aluminum foil helmets to keep aliens from stealing their thoughts while huddled around a fire in the wilderness to escape "the government."

(Really.)

[Cam]

Therein lies the crux of the majority of this thread, especially for those who somehow think Mercedes' lack of success is a conspiracy.
All of this is to say, please stop with the paranoid delusions that Mercedes is deliberately hampering Schumacher for nefarious reasons. That's the sort of sentiment one would expect to hear being bandied about amongst a throng of social outcasts wearing aluminum foil helmets to keep aliens from stealing their thoughts while huddled around a fire in the wilderness to escape "the government."

It does look suss though bhallg2k. I've done a quick comparison across other open wheeler series and some touring car series and can find no comparison to what Mick is experiencing - he's all alone in the scale of it compared to many, many teams and cars across many categories. People consider F1 the height of engineering and would expect results to match. A failure here or there, sure. There is just too many 'oops' to think it's down to luck alone. It's either sloppy, or something smells. Probably down to sloppiness. But other factors could be at play. No-one can say for sure otherwise.

[bhall]

Well, when you put it like that...

It's either incompetence or a $100 million character assassination campaign. Which seems more likely?