Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[mep]

bhallg2k
I agree to everything you said but there are two important things we need to differ. These things are performance and reliability. What you said in your comment is true for performance. Regarding performance - Yes F1 is highly competitive, and it is very hard to be successful, and you need tests, and the right and smart people and so on and on...

But F1 is not very demanding regarding to reliability. Thus it is still absolutely crucial to have it if you want to run on the top of the field. Ferrari realised that very early and implemented a solution to make their cars 100% reliable!!! Which I must say is very remarkable and the reason why they were able to win so many championships and races. Just to point that out Schumacher had no single technical DNF from Hockenheim 2001 until Japan 2006!

Mercedes as engine supplier and McLaren, during that time, didn't understand the importance of reliability and where not able to come even close to that. Otherwise Kimi Raikkonen would have won the 2003 and 2005 WCC where he only finished second by a few points and had numerous technical problems.

What is surprising is that Schumacher has this amazing reliability record and then had 2 technical problems on his car following each other. First the blown engine in Japan and then the mysterious lacks of power during the following race in Brazil. I am not a supporter of any conspiracy theories at all but for those incidents I have a very strong believe in sabotage. Especially because in the following season it was actually proven that the Ferrari cars got sabotaged at the Monaco GP. Back to these days and Mercedes, I don't really think he gets sabotaged but I think that the mechanics in his team are absolutely careless and by their sloppiness cause all these problems. Not in order to achieve some specific goal but because somebody has a dislike to him, to Mercedes or to the work in the team.

Now people might argue that the team scarifies reliability for performance but I say this is not necessary anymore these days. This is done in the engine and to a lesser extent in the gearbox and drivetrain. But with the current engine restrictions these causes of failures are gone. Anyways the engine comes from an "external supplier" which is Mercedes HPE and they work well. The actual performance of the car comes from the aero dynamical shape which is formed by carbon fibre structures which don't cause any reliability issues. Therefore we can say there is no link between performance and reliability anymore. Then there is a certain amount of "system engineering" on the car like hydraulical or electrical circuits. These are required to operate the car but they are not engineered to compromise reliability for performance. However due to their complex nature they are subject to sloppy work. So if they are badly assembled they can suddenly fail during a race causing all that trouble the team has.

However all the other teams are able keep these problems down and maybe check the car before they sent it out. There are even race series which are a head of F1 in terms of reliability like endurance racing in LeMans. Also when we look at other engineering areas reliability is absolutely crucial and still lightweight design is possible. Planes are the perfect example for this. Nobody can actually argue that a F1 car is a complex machine when you place it next to a plane. Yet those systems are still very reliable, as long as none of the lousy Mercedes mechanics comes even close to them.

[raymondu999]

Perhaps there is a planted agent in Mercedes? Planted by someone else? Newey has already said that he has encountered those before

[bhall]

[...] the mysterious lacks of power during the following race in Brazil.

Is that a reference to the 2006 Brazilian Grand Prix where Schumacher had the fastest overall time in qualifying and fought back with one of the finest drives in his career to finish 4th after an early puncture dropped him down to 19th? If so, that hardly points to a "mysterious lack of power."

Like I said before, I understand the frustration. But, it's racing. Things happen that don't seem to make sense. For instance, Pastor Maldonado won this year's Spanish Grand Prix and Narain Karthikeyan is employed in F1. To drive. A race car.

I would, however, caution against taking Ferrari's remarkable run of reliability to mean that reliability is somehow easy. That's not the lesson at all. It's utterly astounding that they were able to have that much sustained success without encountering the demons that have derailed others. (Man, I'm alliteration-happy tonight.)

Ferrari's record is the exception, not the rule.

And I'll remind you that Mercedes AMG Petronas is essentially the same team that's been pretty bad throughout the majority of its existence, be it as Tyrell, BAR, or Honda. Brawn GP lucked into a great initial package, but still sank like a brick as the 2009 season progressed. Otherwise, we're talking about a bad team that's now married to an engine manufacturer with, shall we say, a less than stellar reputation for reliability. The results speak for themselves.

(It's why I hope the rumors of Loic Bigois going to Ferrari are not just unfounded, but very unfounded.)

Schumacher would be doing himself a great favor if he could just qualify a bit further up the grid to get away from some of the dangers associated with being in the midfield. But, that's just tough when the whole field is packed like sardines in a crushed tin box.

It is, as they say, what it is.

[SeijaKessen]

There's quite a simple explanation here.

It's quite clearly the ghost of Ayrton Senna come back for revenge.

I honestly can't believe people seriously believe their is some sort of conspiracy within Mercedes AMG against Schumacher.

Race cars more susceptible to breaking than your daily driver...people seem to forget that because occasionally redlining your motor for a few seconds on the local expressway isn't quite the same as beating the piss out of a F1 car for 90 minutes.

[raymondu999]

Someone in another thread speculated that perhaps Schumacher was filling a Badoer/2009-type role this year. Rosberg pushes for the big results, and Schumacher is meant to be sort of an "active test driver" who drives in the races testing the more prototype, on-the-edge stuff, which for obvious reasons has a slightly higher propensity to fail.

[raymondu999]

And I'll remind you that Mercedes AMG Petronas is essentially the same team that's been pretty bad throughout the majority of its existence, be it as Tyrell, BAR, or Honda.

Tyrrell? Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, this is not the same team as Tyrrell. They just purchased Tyrrell's entry, no? I seem to remember BAR was already a brand new entity. Of course I could have remembered wrong and I'm speaking complete tosh

[bhall]

My own knowledge is - as usual - fuzzy enough that I looked it up.

In 1997 the corporation was convinced by Craig Pollock to provide most of the equity to purchase the Tyrrell Formula One team for GB£30 million. Pollock, Adrian Reynard and Rick Gorne were the minority partners. The deal was announced on 2 December 1997. The team was still officially known as Tyrrell in 1998, before it became BAR the following year.

Either way, the point is that we're not talking about a team with a sterling history of Formula One greatness. Their performance this year, in every aspect, is on par with what it's done in the past. The faces may change, but it seems the culture remains the same.

[mep]

Is that a reference to the 2006 Brazilian Grand Prix where Schumacher had the fastest overall time in qualifying and fought back with one of the finest drives in his career to finish 4th after an early puncture dropped him down to 19th? If so, that hardly points to a "mysterious lack of power."

Yes it is this race, however to refresh your memory a bit: Schumacher did not set the fastest qualifying time, in fact he could not set a time in the last qualy because something with the car was wrong so he had to start from P10. As far as I remember they said it is the fuel pump. During the race this problem came up two more times meaning that the car became where slow during one of the corners which cost him a couple of seconds.

And I'll remind you that Mercedes AMG Petronas is essentially the same team that's been pretty bad throughout the majority of its existence, be it as Tyrell, BAR, or Honda. Brawn GP lucked into a great initial package, but still sank like a brick as the 2009 season progressed. Otherwise, we're talking about a bad team that's now married to an engine manufacturer with, shall we say, a less than stellar reputation for reliability. The results speak for themselves.

Absolutely agreed this team is just bad.
They brought in some good guys on the high end but the lower end of the team is still bad.
It is also the team which is able to build a car that loses its heave spring on track.
That shows how bad things are.

[bhall]

Man, I'd forgotten about Barrichello's heave spring in Hungary. Awful.

I think it should be pretty obvious, though, that this team is simply lost. They're not deliberately hindering Schumacher; they just can't help it.

[Raptor22]

I would agree with you 100% if Rosberg had more than 1 problem this whole year so far that prevented him from running. But that's probably not the case.
This team needs the Joker to be running it. There only place for 15 on Schumacher's car so we're going to have try outs <throws 15 knifes on the floor in front 20 mechanics>.

Seriously, the record of reliability has reached a point where I am really concerned with the safety of the crowd and drivers. F1 has not had a major incident where a driver or spectator has been seriously hurt since 1994. The complacency wrt safety is due a wake up call and MErcedes seem destined to deliver the shock.

whats seems to be agreed points:

1) Schumachers side of the garage lacks competence to build and run a reliable car.
2) The team has a history of not being able to deliver two reliable cars
3) the team has a history of injuring outside parties due to shoddy workmanship
4) The lack of reliability on Schumacher's side of the garage is not confined to 2012 - cast your minds back to 2011, lose wheelnuts in Spa and Malaysia, upright failures, gearbox problems, lack of power in Brasil etc etc

The difference between the Ferrari reliability track record and Mercedes is that Ferrari did indeed design it in from the drawing board stage but also organisationally. Every team meeting is started with a Operational Excellence moment where a employee praises on of his/her colleagues for a job well done and there is a reward attached. Every daily meeting.
The factory staff to the mechanics get mentioned in company newsletter (circulated internally) - There are no men behind masks at Ferrari, well at least in the Todt era.
The results of this were apparent already in 1995 when Berger and Alesi where there. They however could not extract the best from Barnard's car (it was difficult to set up even he made it simpler than the F194!) INn 1996 remember Schumacher scored 3 victories against an overwhelmingly superior Williams Renault. These were at Barcelona, Spa and Monza. Ferrari developed in race winners within the first year of the dream team. Mercedes have had 3 years....
Schumacher was challenging for the championship in 1997, the 2nd year of the partnership.
From 1998 through 1999 Ferrari were in the fight. Mercedes are sort of in it at the moment but they really need Rosberg to win a few more.

I still favour the sabotage theory. At some point the team has to give the driver with the most likey chance of a championship chance the best of everything. Its' not hard to incentivise a team member to ensure that the dice are loaded. All thats needed is someone with means, access to the team and with a vested interest in Rosberg winning. Mechanics are easy to target because like anyone who had gone to Cambrdige, an F1 mechanic will tell you he is an F1 mechanic without you being interested or not. Sure its a wild and fantastic idea but do some home work. How much technical problems has Schumacher had over the last 2.5years at Mercedes. This statistic is surely not lost on Ross Brawn. If it is then he should be fired.
It sticks to high heavens whats happening in that F1 team. I can't support such an organisation. I just pray they don't kill anyone with their culture.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Perhaps there is a planted agent in Mercedes? Planted by someone else? Newey has already said that he has encountered those before

Interesting, do you have the piece where Newey mentions this?

Judging by Schumachers performance this year, he could of had equal to or more points than Rosberg. And the points he scores, are points others don't, and if you look at the constructors championship...Mercedes would probably be leading or just behind Red Bull(so much for the team not shedding it's historical performance indicator)....
Looking back at the Coughlan/Stepney affair, this actually isn't as extra-terrestrial as it may at first appear.

If I where Mercedes team boss, I'd have camera's and 2 monitors to take 2x12 hour surveillance of the cars, especially Schumacher's. May sound paranoid, but when you look at the names of the people involved here...Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Ross Brawn, Schumacher, Andy Shovlin, Jock Clear, Aldo Costa etc. Where is the catalyst for these reliability issues? You may as well act paranoid to isolate every eventuality.
2010 and 2011 where pretty solid years for Mercedes in this area.

Could it be that the factory reshuffle and the sackings and hirings(rumoured to have been a few staff laid off end of 2011) and even more staff aquired at the same time) that they are experiencing teething troubles? Why only Schumacher though.
Rotten luck, or is there a planted agent?

For me it's one of those 2. Mercedes would not screw itself over, and Rosbergs car appears bulletproof.

[xpensive]

The strangest thing in all this, is that MS has always been hailed as the first driver to xpand outside the traditional role,
to actually build the team around himself, like he did at Benetton and Ferrari.

Doesn't seem to work so well this time, does it?

[raymondu999]

Perhaps there is a planted agent in Mercedes? Planted by someone else? Newey has already said that he has encountered those before

Interesting, do you have the piece where Newey mentions this?

I saw this from a link on F1Fanatic (fantastic blog btw) http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... ering.html

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Perhaps there is a planted agent in Mercedes? Planted by someone else? Newey has already said that he has encountered those before

Interesting, do you have the piece where Newey mentions this?

I saw this from a link on F1Fanatic (fantastic blog btw) http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... ering.html

Wow, okay so this does seem to be a very plausible theory. Especially in light of Mercedes recruitment drive.
I do wonder if the management at Brackley think the same.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The strangest thing in all this, is that MS has always been hailed as the first driver to xpand outside the traditional role,
to actually build the team around himself, like he did at Benetton and Ferrari.

Doesn't seem to work so well this time, does it?

I didnt give much credance to this. A great driver yes, a background mover and shaker? No.