2012 European GP - Valencia

[SeijaKessen]

I don't think Lewis drove him off track maliciously. Maybe I'm not a good enough writer to get that across. I don't know. I think it happend because he was trying too hard to defend his position on tires that couldn't give him what he needed, and he didn't want to lose the podium spot. I don't think he did anything wrong except to not live and fight another day. I don't think he deserves a penalty, drives dirty, or deserves unwarranted scorn. I just think it was simply a bad situation exacerbated with his desire to keep the spot, and Maldonado's overzealous desire to get the podium spot away from him. Both made mistakes they shouldn't have. Grosjean had him pretty much dead to rights, and Maldonado didn't. That's it. I don't hate Lewis at all, I just think he needs someone in his corner to help him see the bigger picture. Ever since his dad left he's been getting into situations on track he shouldn't be in, his fault or someone elses besides, and whatever his Dad did to keep his eyes on the prize, he needs that back. Even in the post race interview he was all about fighting to the last man, and he didn't need to. Sure not finishing third sucks, but zero points suck even more. Especially since his closest rival in the championship did the exact opposite of him, and is now ahead of him by a whole race win.

A majority of this forum decided to jump on top of Maldonado for no other reason than it is Maldonado. As I've stated, I don't particularly care for him myself, but the line of thought governing the thought processes of some, where "if Maldonado is involved, it must be his fault", is a dangerous place to start venturing.

I simply viewed the entire thing as both making a bad decision that coincidentally happened at the same time. Two drivers fighting it out for position making an error at the same time tends to have a negative outcome more often than not.

[f1316]

Agreed. I think we should see a bigger variation in strategy when we get to the more overtake-friendly circuits such as Hockenheim.

Given what we were talking about regarding pushing the tyres rather than conserving and taking an extra stop, I thought this from Gary Anderson was very interesting:

"There has been a lot of talk this year about the tyres limiting the performance of the cars and the drivers not being able to exploit the cars' ultimate pace in the race so as not to over-work the rubber.

But that does not tally with Vettel opening up a 20-second lead. That is him driving the car at its pace because there is no need to open such an advantage; you could open up a five-second lead and then keep it there, as he did for much of last year.

He was putting himself in a position where he could use his strategy, but also make another stop and still not lose the lead if he needed to. That's clever thinking. "

[GrizzleBoy]

Well, for one I didn't say you said something you didn't actually say. So there's that difference. I still don't understand where you keep getting the idea I'm biased from. You plainly said that Grosjean was ahead the whole time, and that's not true at all. The screenshots I posted prove it. He made it through ahead, but he wasn't ahead in the areas you repeatedly said he was. I've said more than enough times that Lewis had every right to defend his position, but that he might've chosen to take his licks and live to fight another day. You've hinted or outright said I'm biased more times that I've said you are, and one of your reasons was hilariously wrong. Not to mention this phantom "other reason" you've accused me of. Find it as sad as you want, at least I'm not hinting at what I believe, and have instead come straight out and said it.

No, I said Grosjean won the first corner and in doing so, won the line for the next corner.

He was ahead at the end of the braking phase, ahead during corner entry and only "lost out" during the exit due to having the outside line.

However, this line was where he needed to be to win the next corner, which he did.

You said he wasn't ahead except for the apex which is nowhere near true. If he wasn't as far ahead as he was during the initial turn in, Lewis would have easily been able shut the door just as he did with Maldonado, but Grosjeans car was far ahead enough and already had enough steering input to actually be nearing closing the door for Hamilton approaching the apex.

Maldonado at no point during the turn was far ahead enough of Lewis to have made that move stick, which is why I and others have said he was chasing an impossible overtake in that instance and should have backed off as there was no opening. You called it "bull****".

However, in your attempts to show it as "bull****" you went and proved precisely why it was impossible for Maldonado to get past in that instance. Given that you calling it "bull****" is what actually started this whole thing, it seems you've actually come full circle lol.

My Original point was that Maldonado didn't win the space or track position he needed to negate a "shut door" defense manoeuvre and was at that point chasing an impossible pass due to his lack of backing off.

You called it BS and said it wasn't impossible because other people did it probably mistakenly assuming I meant it was impossible to make the pass in that area at all, which tbh makes no sense given that my point also consisted of the fact that other people actually made the pass.

Then there was a load of blah blah.

Then you posted pictures showing how Maldonado didn't have anywhere to make the pass due to Lewis' defense, therefore proving that the pass he was chasing at that moment was impossible and that he should've back off.

I think I'll maybe just stop typing for now.

[raymondu999]

Agreed. I think we should see a bigger variation in strategy when we get to the more overtake-friendly circuits such as Hockenheim.

Given what we were talking about regarding pushing the tyres rather than conserving and taking an extra stop, I thought this from Gary Anderson was very interesting:

"There has been a lot of talk this year about the tyres limiting the performance of the cars and the drivers not being able to exploit the cars' ultimate pace in the race so as not to over-work the rubber.

But that does not tally with Vettel opening up a 20-second lead. That is him driving the car at its pace because there is no need to open such an advantage; you could open up a five-second lead and then keep it there, as he did for much of last year.

He was putting himself in a position where he could use his strategy, but also make another stop and still not lose the lead if he needed to. That's clever thinking. "

Yes he was probably flat out at that point, to make a pitstop gap he could capitalise on if Grosjean pitted one less time to him.

[f1316]

Yes he was probably flat out at that point, to make a pitstop gap he could capitalise on if Grosjean pitted one less time to him.

It's interesting strategy. I wonder if Grosjean would have tried to respond (or been able to) if he hadn't been stuck behind Hamilton? I suppose the decision to push like that was based on the fact that Grosjean was being slowed - had he not been and been on a similar pace to Vettel, they would probably have tried to conserve.

Still, I think there's something in this approach, and I'm pleased to see that there could be races where a driver pushing the limits for the full distance could pay off. With McLaren's rear tyre wear being what it is, you wonder if it's something they should try with Hamilton.

[Chuckjr]

Ray, your post a few notes back was brilliant. The screen shot photo comparisons say it all and completely clarified to me my take which was Lewis was at fault nearly 100% IMO. He completely drove Mal off the line just like Ros drove Lewis off the line earlier in the year. It's a non issue after reading your clarification. Thanks for taking the time--just another reason why this forum is a superb place to get the straight facts with evidence. Well done.

[bhall]

Here's a look from a different angle.

(Click each picture to enlarge.)












20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

Seems pretty clear to me. They both screwed up. But, Hamilton was the initial aggressor, because forcing Maldonado off-track was the only chance he had to maintain position. In light of that, it shouldn't have been much of a surprise that Maldonado would then force his way back.

[Pup]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think that rule is typically (ever?) applied to corner exits. It's intended I think for moves like what Schumi pulled on Barichello that time.

[GrizzleBoy]

Also, the question I'd have to ask is if at those kinds of low speeds where backing out was quite possible for an F1 car travelling at around 45mph, whether it was crowding or whether it was someone trying to push into a space they assumed they should have given to them, but never appeared.

During entry and early mid corner, Maldonado is watching and waiting, then suddenly makes a noticable jab to the right with his steering wheel which if continued would have led him into the side of Hamilton.

As much as Hamilton was shutting the door on him, he probably realised and also tried to push his way into the space that was never there.

[bhall]

There was no reason for Hamilton to drift that wide out of the corner. Maldonado's position meant there was no door to shut. Of course, given the condition of his tires, Hamilton may not have had much of a choice.

Like I said, they both screwed up. It was Hamilton first and then Maldonado, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. These particular drivers have displayed a propensity for taking liberties with common racing etiquette. It is what it is.

[SeijaKessen]

There was no reason for Hamilton to drift that wide out of the corner. Maldonado's position meant there was no door to shut. Of course, given the condition of his tires, Hamilton may not have had much of a choice.

Like I said, they both screwed up. It was Hamilton first and then Maldonado, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. These particular drivers have displayed a propensity for taking liberties with common racing etiquette. It is what it is.

I'm expecting the two of them to turn this into a season long incident.

I suspect Silverstone will be a non-issue, but I can see fireworks at Hockenheim.

[marcush.]

Horner still barking around for the open DRS.. .I thought stewarts decisions are set in stone..carry on mothiong to see anymore...

Same for the two who made Schumis podium possible...two bloody idiots throwing away a considerable haul of points ,much work for wurz and sam michael ...to get those heads level .

[Ganxxta]

Horner still barking around for the open DRS.. .I thought stewarts decisions are set in stone..carry on mothiong to see anymore...

Mercedes should have protested against Webber also, he clearly was on full speed at the end of the straight.
Nico could've gained a place

Btw. the DRS was closed at the first yellow flag, don't know whats to discuss there. Horner

[i70q7m7ghw]

Maldonado should not have been alongside Hamilton for the second of those two corners, it's not possible to make a move like that without driving outside the limits of the track.
It's pretty bog standard race craft to be honest.

You'll never drive for Renault, Torro Rosso, Red Bull, or Mercedes then. All of those teams had drivers that made a pass at that exact corner without incident.

Saying "it's not possible to make a move like that" is blatantly and hilariously false. That move was made many times in that GP by a handful of drivers.

You've edited my post and taken statements out of context to suite your own agenda.

Read the part about Maldonado actually being able to make the corner using the line he did. This is the most important bit.

[GrizzleBoy]

There was no reason for Hamilton to drift that wide out of the corner. Maldonado's position meant there was no door to shut. Of course, given the condition of his tires, Hamilton may not have had much of a choice.

Like I said, they both screwed up. It was Hamilton first and then Maldonado, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. These particular drivers have displayed a propensity for taking liberties with common racing etiquette. It is what it is.

Sounds like talking in circles tbh.

I could just as well say that there was no door open for Maldonado either (due to the fact that pursuing his manoeuvre took him off the track) and that Hamiltons position was the cause of that.

There was no space that Maldonado could have driven into to, in order to complete the overtake.

It is the role of the overtaking driver to drive into space, not to wait for space to be made available to them.